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Join us as on this week’s Monday Q & A, as we unpack the listener question : How can truth be known in a world of artificial intelligence?
In this Q&A ATC Episode:
• We explore the unlimited propaganda of human desire.
• The concept of reality itself and what IS.
• Our hidden lies we love.
Grab your beverage of choice and pull up a seat Across the Counter.
Connect with Across the Counter Podcast:
Website: www.atcpodcast.com
Instagram: @encounteracross
Hey guys, this is Jared Tafta and Grant Lockridge. We are here recording our Monday Q&A, where we take questions from listeners and then do our best to walk along that path of discovery. We are not guys with answers, but we definitely are walking with you and figuring out what it means to live a life in love with Christ. We have a question from a friend of mine. Actually, as we were talking, his name is George. The question that came up, and that has come up recurringly, was how do we know what is true in a world of AI? I'll pass that off and we'll just begin the conversation.
Speaker 2:Okay. So how do we know what is true in the world of AI? So, basically, the first thing I think we have to do is define what truth is as lame as that sounds, because words change definitions all the time. So we pretty much have to start with defining what truth is. So I've been reading this John Mark Comer book called Live no Lies and I thought that he had a pretty incredible definition of truth and I loved it because it's just so simple. He just says truth is reality and lies are unreality or not reality. That's just a great definition to me, and we can also go with the thing that Jesus is truth because Jesus said that he was. So we either take that on face value and we trust that Jesus said that, or we could dive into a discussion more on how do we trust Jesus and that sort of thing. But truth is reality. So how do we know what reality is in a world of AI? There's just so much. Something that Jared said before we recorded this is that propaganda has been around for forever. So AI is just another form of propaganda if used in that way. So just that idea of there just being so much propaganda out there and so many incorrect ideologies and just lies that I mean you only have to open up your phone for a second and go on Instagram and you'll get a hundred different people telling you a hundred different things, and some of them are valuable and some of them aren't. So how do we distinguish that? And I would say the main thing is that we have to read just a ton of scripture to be able to know what Jesus said, because he is the truth. So we have to read almost every word that he's ever said and distinguish that and say that that is what's true, and anything that doesn't really align with that would be not reality.
Speaker 1:Hmm, yeah, I guess, like I even just looking up that we all know the idea of propaganda. But just the actual definition of propaganda? It's information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view. So for me, like I think what I immediately think about is information of a biased nature. Like there's always been unreality that's being represented, so there's always been human beings that are portraying information from a biased nature for whatever their own ends are. Like that's not a new thing. What's interesting is now we have created software and we have computation that, without our express energies being put into it, can pour out more misleading and biased information that then has ever existed in reality. And what's fascinating about that is artificial intelligence and our own programming have gotten so good that we're coming to a place now that it becomes difficult to tell the difference between an article written by a human being and an article written by artificial intelligence. If you look into like video and deep fakes, like people's faces being used in different videos, almost any source of information that's online becomes questionable in terms of whether or not it actually happened. Even down to like studying statistics and finding out like the truth and the reality of that. Like so many, you could even reproduce studies that aren't real, that never happened. So to me, like the idea of the question how do we know what is true in a world of AI? It also just relates to like how have we ever known what is true when we've always lived in a world of lies? It seems like it's more important now than ever if there's going to be more of an abundance of lies. So when you said Jesus is truth, the interesting thing for me is that you use John Mark Commerce quote, which is truth is reality. My next question is what does it mean for person to be reality? Because if Jesus is truth, you could replace that and say Jesus is reality. So now we're to the heart of what I feel like the question is so what does it mean for reality to be founded, anchored, existent in a person? So I'm sure you can answer that, graham.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just that. I mean still that cornerstone mentality of that Jesus should be the cornerstone of everything else that we build in our lives and that idea that everything really like Jesus is reality. So there's all sorts of things that we can't see, that are happening every day, that are in the spiritual realm, and I don't want to go too far into this, but just the other's constant spiritual battles happening all around us that we can't see and we feel the effects of that and we can be the casualties in that and just figuring out how to distinguish truth in that and being able to see the reality. That is, there's always spiritual warfare happening and just the idea that lies more specifically you believing lies, and you going out and living those lies and living, because lies are just lies until you actually take action behind them. So once you start to believe a lie like hey, I'm not worthy of love or I'm not worthy of acceptance, once you believe that then you would let anybody treat you poorly because you don't feel like you're worth it or something like that.
Speaker 1:So like lies are just lies until you put faith in them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, just Jesus being reality would be. The reality is is that you are loved and that you are accepted by Christ, but there's also the reality that you have to turn from sin and repent and follow Him, and there's also the reality that that's not easy. That doesn't mean that you'll be at least in my understanding of it, which is constantly changing that you'll be necessarily financially prosperous, that life's going to be easy, that life's going to be really good for you. It means that you are more able to get through those things, that because you have Jesus in your life, you have that presence in your life and that Holy Spirit in you that makes it so that, come what may, you have a way to deal with it. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it gives you a. It's kind of like the tools to exist within reality, that's in alignment, to allow you to have a fruitful participation in reality. The question that came to mind not to keep being so philosophical, but the other question that comes to mind is what is reality? So you could just replace one word and then put another word in. But, like you, really, we really do have to define every part of what we're talking about. So I mean, this may be too simple, but what is reality? I wrote that which is and the word is to me in this sentence is like the prevailing nature of existence outside of ourselves. That exists. That is so when we think of. I even like sound stupid to myself saying this, because it starts to get difficult to explain the height and the depth of the type of words that we're describing. Being not a very smart man, when I think about Jesus being reality, I need to simplify that in my mind. So what I think about is if Jesus is reality, think about some of the different anchors of life that exists, like there are such a thing as fathers, there are such a thing as brothers, there are such a thing as sons and daughters and family, like those are things that exist because of human beings participating in family in the world. So if Jesus is reality or truth is reality or Jesus is reality, then to me that means his anchoring point of perspective is not that I as a father am coming up with what it means to be a father from my perspective. It means that Jesus himself or the Heavenly Father is father and therefore I'm a reflection of that fatherhood. Or as a man, like, if Jesus is reality, if God is reality, then I'm a reflection as a man of that reality. Or, like Grant said, one of the ways that the scripture describes this is it says that God is spirit and then John also says that God is love. So, like the most fundamental core nature of reality in scripture is that love is reality, like God is love, love is that most fundamental core. But to me there's an issue there and Grant already brought it up which is justice exists within love, and so if there is sin, then now there's a point of tension, because scripture says that God is love, truth is reality. Well, it means that there's a necessity to deal with sin in a God who is love. And if justice exists, then that means somebody has to pay for injustice. And so now we come full circle to. Well, what does that mean if love and Jesus and truth are all in such a tight-knit relationship to reality? To me that brings us to the place of need of someone to bring about life, stepping into the middle of a reality that is loving but also just, and that, stepping in in my mind and heart, happens in the person that is Jesus Christ as Lord. It says his hope is for love and fulfillment in life, but truth, justice, love, all those things exist together in reality. So I don't know if this is a confusing Q&A. It makes sense in my mind and in my heart, but to some degree we're taking a few minutes on a Monday to talk about the nature of reality itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, also just to make it further complicated.
Speaker 1:Oh, fantastic.
Speaker 2:Which is what we all need. Gotta take it back to the fall right with Adam and Eve and the serpent and all that jazz. So what tactics did the serpent use to deceive Eve and then Adam? Ultimately, which? It's that idea of what do we want to believe Like? What did Eve want to believe in that situation? Right, because the lie is that you surely like. The lie is that God says one thing and the serpent twists it and says did God really say that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the tactic he used was to create doubt. Yeah, exactly, but when he created doubt, the thing that rose up was well, what does Eve really want? Like it's almost like allowing you to believe the lie you want to believe.
Speaker 2:And that's so applicable in our own lives of like did God really say that? Like? The idea of? Did God really say that? Like if it doesn't necessarily line up with our own beliefs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like if you have a predetermined desire and then you go to an internet that can produce as much propaganda bias results as you want. Propaganda may not be a word, but what? I mean, is that let's go, All right so it can produce as many as many supposed valid resources as you want. Then you can take any unreality, like any lie, to the internet and to artificial intelligence and then you can get an irrefutable backing, like almost an innumerable amount of irrefutable sources that back whatever you want to believe. That's terrifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then it comes down to our hearts as humans, and all humanity of that. We want to believe certain things and if there's lies to back that up, which I would call that, you know, our fleshly desires, if there's lies that say our fleshly desires are the right thing to do then, that is so damaging, Like you know, there's so many examples that you could come up with that, like is it okay for me to drink? Is it okay for me to have sex before marriage? Like, and there's lines all throughout.
Speaker 1:You could even take the American credit system like a debt to income ratio. Like a lot of Western culture says, it'll build your credit If you go into debt and have more than you can afford right now and it's good for you and it's good for your credit to carry debt. Literally like to some degree used wrongly that says go ahead and feed your greed Like it's good. Yeah, like that is insane.
Speaker 2:It is the most and other countries do credit differently, which is great. Our credit system is crazy.
Speaker 1:It's literally like could you like trying to choke you out? Could we squeeze just a little bit more?
Speaker 2:That's like let's get in debt and that's good. Like you cannot buy a house unless you get in debt first.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's like you can't even go get a loan if you say I have proven cash documentation of that income?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, that matters, honey, that's not important.
Speaker 1:We need to know how much debt you can create.
Speaker 2:What number do you have?
Speaker 1:We know how good of a slave to debt you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's unreal. I never even thought about that.
Speaker 1:It's just fascinating.
Speaker 2:like to think like I mean that whole thing is built up on just a lie.
Speaker 1:And it's because of the nature of humankind, like it's a better business model. If I can get you to carry more debt due to your greed and your impatience and your lack of discipline, if I can hold you just on the edge of not killing yourself from the debt and get as much as possible from you but you never actually own anything, then I get the most profit from that. Like it really does. It asks you it's the Eve question again Like is that really what's most important? Like what if you could just have everything you want?
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that really what God says?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's such. I mean, that is the lie that just builds on itself so incredibly, Because there's so many things like what does God say about that? And we can just twist it so many different ways and a lot of times it isn't clear, it isn't complete black and white, like, oh, it's so clear that God says this about this, Like there's principles in there and there's. If you read enough of the Bible and you read it over and over, you get that and we were talking about this at a breakfast thing but that if you read the Bible over and over and you get the various themes and principles from it and you constantly pray and are in the Word, you start hearing God's voice, Maybe not audibly, but the whole thing of like do you hear? My sheep will hear my voice, kind of thing. They'll recognize me by my voice. Just that idea that you and I don't want to get in trouble with this because you can take that idea and run with it and be like oh, I think God told me this. And then go up to somebody and be like hey, God told me to divorce your wife and it's like okay, well, obviously God didn't tell you that. I mean, even Catholics have that with the Pope, which blew my mind of if the and I might butcher this, but there's this crazy thing with the Pope that and I totally might edit this out so we'll find out.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, we're gonna let it roll.
Speaker 2:But there's this thing with the Pope that basically there's this phrase that after he says it, it basically is His words have the same validity of Scripture, basically. And but there's this catch all, because there's been warrior popes, there's been crazy popes throughout history. There's this catch all that if it doesn't line up with Scripture, that it's moved, that it doesn't count.
Speaker 1:But that's such a paradox because it literally says but it is Scripture, unless it doesn't line up with Scripture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like Hold on. And it's like yeah, I mean yeah, it is Scripture, until it doesn't.
Speaker 1:Until it ain't yeah.
Speaker 2:So, but that's actually a pretty good mantra for our own lives of saying things and then immediately being like OK, that didn't line up with Scripture, so I probably shouldn't have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:Went there.
Speaker 1:Maybe some of the some of what our listeners can hear in this is you're also listening to two idiots talk about reality and truth and, like somebody could say, what gives you the right to be informing, or even think that you can have a question and answer about some of the the most contemplated questions and thoughts of human existence, and our answer would be we have a mic and a computer and we love to discover what is true and we just hope that in the process of discovery we can come alongside and walk with others who are interested. So just a blanket statement Grant and I are not. We don't have a right to tell anyone what to obey or what to do. What we do long for is to just pursue the truth and we believe that the truth is a person and that we're not going to fail if we're continuing to be in pursuit of the truth and love. We don't believe that there's condemnation in us learning, even if we're not really idiots Grant's not, I think I am sometimes but we're just. We're just learning along the way and it's OK, and we'll admit when we're wrong, we'll admit when we're failing, but our hope is just that, like not being afraid to question and to learn will develop a community of listeners who are also not afraid to ask some questions that actually require something of their lives in faithfulness and discipline. So, god, I just felt like it was important to say that.
Speaker 2:No, that's valid.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:For me anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, that being said, the idea of reality and truth, the idea of what we're talking about, to me personally feels like, like all of us have participated in relationships with just a young man or woman that's got a lot of opinions and has had a lot of like academic study or read a lot of articles, and then go out to the front lines and they think they know something because they read it in a book or they discovered in some place or heard from some scientists that it was true. And then they go out on the front lines and they meet the farmer, they meet the soldier, they meet the widow who has been continually caring for the neighbors in the past 80 years in her neighborhood. Like you meet these people who have the truth embodied in themselves, and it's not just an idea of what is true, and to me the embodiment is related to something they granted earlier, which is there are just certain principles that work, that produce life in reality, and then there are certain principles that don't. So I love, like. John Piper is a guy that I've enjoyed in the past and still to this day I don't listen as much anymore, but one of his sermons he talked about like having a paradigm of what was true and then taking it out into the world and swinging it at something and seeing if it held up. And so to me, to some degree, like we can have ideas of what is true, but then we have to go live out the application of that and discover whether or not the principles that we're holding in our heart to be true align with the principles of what is actual reality. And that would be where I would. The last thing I would say on this note is like in real, in real truth and reality we're not able to genuinely discover unless we go live it. Like we can't sit in rooms and read AI and documents and find all these different representations of what we supposedly say is true and then not go out and actually talk to someone, go share the gospel, go learn what it means to forgive someone who has hated you or spit in your face. Like Mike Tyson said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. I think that can kind of translate here. When you say everybody thinks they know what's true until they get spit in the face, like it. Just you can think a lot of things about yourself, about your patience and your endurance and your kindness and what kind of person you are. And then you have a. You know I've got three kids under four years old. Then you have a kid and you find out who you really are and there were things that I thought were true. And then there's things now that are terrible about my level of weakness and impatience and my lack of control that I now know are true that I'm so disappointed in about myself. So I don't know if that's helpful or not, but, like my answer quote answer would be the truth is a reality that you discover in the person whose name is Jesus Christ when you submit to him as Lord, and he continues to work that out in and through you every day that the sun rises.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can't go wrong with that definition. For me either, I mean, truth is Jesus, truth is reality. Jesus is the best reality there is. And another reality is that Jesus has already won the war. So we are fighting a victorious battle, which is just one of the many, many realities that life in Jesus has to offer. And believing Jesus at his word and what he said is is massive. And I want to circle back to that idea of principles of you. Actually, if you live a certain way, if you live the way that Jesus calls you to live, there will be fruit from that. There will be differences and your life will go a certain way, which is, you know, at least your attitude about your life will go a certain way. The circumstances probably will not be the same, but the attitude about life and the just, the abiding in truth and the restfulness that Christians experience and the peace that some Christians experience and stuff like that. So, yeah, I mean, truth is reality, truth is Jesus, and the best way to distinguish Truth, that type of truth, but like with AI, is just be heavy in the word and know Jesus's words front and backwards and pray for wisdom and understanding of how to live that out and how to not believe the stuff that AI would give you and also Just quit reading so much. Go live a little go put your phone down for a second.
Speaker 1:Go serve somebody go.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, go be in relationship man cuz even like starting our Instagram page on on our number one it's just like yeah, even starting the Instagram page has made me see, like, look at Instagram more, and I don't even like that. Yeah, so I don't really know what to do about that. Maybe someone can help me out with that. But cuz, I want to continue promoting content, but I don't want to get sucked in to the wave of Instagram, yeah, so yeah, I Maybe that.
Speaker 1:Maybe the last piece of that is that the first and the last is if Jesus is the core, fundamental, absolutive reality, that means that that the anchoring principle of existence is a relationship like if they. If if a person is reality and then scripture says that that person longs for relationship, then everything in reality has a reference point of Relationship as being the priority, and I think that's something that we know to be true as human beings. You can have all the money, all the riches in the world, but if you have lost all the relationships that are valuable to you, nothing in the world can purchase those. And the some of the most wealthy men and women that have ever lived have sacrificed their relationships with their wives, their sons, their daughters, their brothers, their mothers, their fathers, and they have. They have ended those lives in absolute misery. Like that's a truth that I don't need Documentation to prove, like I know that in the core of my being, that all of us know that. But for a time. Greed, drugs, money, things they satisfy for a time. But the issue is, if you spend a whole life satisfying all of those different selfish emotions On your deathbed, you know that you've wasted that life because you die alone and there's no legacy of your relationships. So I don't think those are core realities that need to be Proved through research on the internet, like I think those are things that are inherently known to the human soul, and some of this is predetermined by the idea that we believe that the Most core realities of spiritual reality, like you mentioned earlier, and that if God is spirit, then relationship is something that happens in the spiritual plane. And you know, maybe our next can, maybe our next Q&A can be what does the word spirit mean?
Speaker 2:Cool. Well, we'll end it there and thanks so much for listening. We we love doing this and we love hearing from you guys. So if you guys have any more questions or anything you want us to To discuss, we'll be back every Monday for Monday Q&A. It's signing off and please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast, and thanks so much for listening guys.
Speaker 1:Hit that subscribe button.
Speaker 2:Boom. Why not? Why not do that?
