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Have you ever felt too far gone? Like nothing can save you from the darkness? Join us as we talk with Richard Aronson about his experience with satanism, the occult, and ultimately his life changing journey with Jesus.
In this OTC Episode:
• We speak on the superficial Christian life, or the "Jesus light" lifestyle. In a world where faith has often been diluted to fit our convenience, this episode emphasizes the importance of authenticity in discipleship.
• We delve into the subject of spiritual violence. A term that might seem paradoxical, but when understood, can unleash a power that has the potential to transform our communities.
• We discuss the role of men in the kingdom of God, and how the warrior spirit within them can be a force for good when channeled correctly. Not one to shy away from the storms of life, we also ponder on finding peace amidst life's challenges and the incredible power of prayer.
Note: Every time you hear that noise in the background it’s Richard hitting the table to make a point.
Connect with the Across the Counter Podcast:
Instagram: @acrossthecounterpod
Website: www.atcpodcast.com
We're just gonna record and see what happens.
Speaker 2:So what's your name, sir? My name is Richard Jerome Aronson.
Speaker 1:So what do you think you're on this podcast today?
Speaker 2:Just to have a conversation.
Speaker 1:I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like it. You guys like to talk, I like to talk, so apparently you're just gonna talk.
Speaker 1:So I've heard through a little birdie, aka Jared, that you are the CEO of Switch.
Speaker 2:What is that? So Switch is a non-profit in Greenville that serves mostly ladies that have been trafficked, but basically anybody that's been sex trafficked and so yeah, so they've been doing that since about 2012 and I came on board for about a year there, but I've been doing that kind of work for since about 2011. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:That was how we got connected was just knowing Richard through some other pastors in the area and then a friend of ours connected us. So originally that was where Richard was at, but then also hearing other parts of his story, we can go into any of that, but it was just one of the most interesting man I've ever met.
Speaker 1:So what's your story then?
Speaker 2:So yeah, short version. I was born in Los Angeles. My mom put me up for adoption pretty quick, right away, but I was in a foster home for eight months. So for eight months I lived in a foster home in Los Angeles. Then I was adopted by a Jewish family in Los Angeles. I joke about it. The reason why I said my name is Richard Jerome Aronson is because neither Richard or Jerome are proper Jewish names. But I just felt like God had his hand on me even back then, because scripture says that we're kings and priests and my name is both king and priest. So I take it literally and it sounds stupid, but that's me. There's nothing Jewish about that. But my parents had no idea what they were doing. God did so raising that family went to Hebrew school, had a bar mitzvah, did all the good Jew stuff. And while I was doing all the good Jew stuff I had a best friend and his family. They went to the largest Baptist church in our area. So I'd go to Hebrew school and then at nights I'd go and do Iwanas with my buddy. And so I'm being raised in both of these things and all the while, deep inside of me I'm like God. There has to be something more to this world than all the good Jew stuff and all the good Baptist stuff. I don't get it. What's going on? I was looking for something, looking for a supernatural experience. My friend's sister was doing like a good news club. You guys know what good news clubs are probably right. So she was doing a good news club, shared the salvation message. I have no idea what's going on. I'm eight, nine years old. She talks about Jesus. I'm like okay, I'll do that. That sounds good, lisa. So immediately after that she like we're sitting in my living room. I can see it so clearly. We're sitting there. She goes okay, richard, now that you have Jesus in your heart, you have to tell your parents, or else their blood will be on your hands.
Speaker 1:And this is eight years old. I'm about eight years old. I'm about eight years old, right.
Speaker 2:So is there a church here in the mall? That came later. So like, here, you are right. You know, little boys especially, you say something, all they're going to see is the literal translation of whatever. So I'm just like oh my God, what the? And so like, scripture says that when the seed is sown and people don't understand, immediately the thief comes to steal that seed. Well, I had no clue what that meant. Blood on my hands and immediately a seed was sown in my heart. I started being attracted to the occult and to witchcraft. So I bought my first witchcraft book when I was about nine or 10. And from that point until I was 26, I practiced the occult and witchcraft. I invited spirits into my body, but I never got what I wanted. I asked I'm like come, you can have me, come, come into my life, come, come and take over. But God wouldn't let that happen. So he kept me protected. No matter how many times I flipped him off, no matter how many times I cursed his name, no, how many times I said F you, he wouldn't let the demons take me over. And I just was. That just made me even more pissed at God. I'm like just let me have what I want Just leave me alone. And he wouldn't. You know, the biggest event in that, in the middle of that, when I was just, you know, worshiping the devil, was one day I was praying and I'm like, okay, satan, if you do X, y, z for me, and it was very specific and a very passionate prayer. And I said, if you do this for me, I swear to you I will become your fiercest worshiper. And then later that day I was at the store and the thing I prayed for was presented to me, exactly what I asked for, and I went let's just put that whole. I'm not ready to fulfill my part of the agreement. What?
Speaker 1:is the thing.
Speaker 2:Doesn't matter, I like that. It's unimportant at this point, it's just a hard note. Yeah, sorry, you're just going to have to sit and wonder on that one, and that you would have thought if I would have went. Okay, well, obviously I prayed to Satan and this thing was presented. He's real. Hmm, that must mean God and Jesus and all this Jesus stuff is real to him. Nah, I was just a knucklehead, stupid, dumb, dumb. So like, nope, that's fine, I'm just going to keep practicing my occult witchcraft and just keep praying to this thing and that thing and the other thing and keep asking for demons to come in to me and hopefully eventually it'll happen. But when I was 26, we were now living in Washington state I was watching some public access TV. You guys don't know what this is, probably, but it was what it's YouTube before YouTube.
Speaker 3:It was like PBS and the local network.
Speaker 2:It's local network free TV. So, any who has could get their programming on the local network and just do stupid, you know TV whatever they wanted. So I just call it YouTube before YouTube. So this guy is in his garage talking to some teenagers and they're talking about Jesus. Up until that point, I just would rail hard against any kind of Christian TV, because all I'd ever seen was Jan Crouch, paul Crouch, whatever that all was, and I would just do. They had these big gaudy sets with gold pillars and thrones and it just was. I would just mock it fiercely.
Speaker 3:Like like, like chapel, like heavenly chapel. Stages.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was just ridiculous. And so I would just just go against it hard. And if my wife tried to defend it I'd go against her hard. But all the while she's praying behind the scenes, unbeknownst to me God, I know my husband's not a stupid man literally her prayer. So if you could just bring the right person and speak the right words to him, I know he'd see that you're the answer. So here I am watching this guy and he's just talking to a couple of teenagers in his garage and they're just talking about Jesus. And all of a sudden I'm just like sitting there watching this and I don't know where my wife is in the room, but I go out loud, not to her specifically, just I'm just there going. I could go to a church like that, you know, and probably, if I think about it, I could hear her jaw hitting the floor at this moment. And, sure enough, at the end of the show the guy says well, hey, I'm the youth pastor at this church called Christian Faith Center, which I just found out was about half a mile, maybe quarter mile, half a mile, up the road from the apartment we literally just moved into. And so here's this opportunity, like, wow, okay. So we go there that next Sunday and everything I wanted. I just went forward, surrendered my heart to God and, sure enough, all that I'd been looking for was fulfilled when Jesus and I just came into a relationship with each other and it was the most powerful moment of my life. Up until then, I'd be carrying deep anxiety just terrible, I call it a thousand iron butterflies living in my stomach that was gone in a moment and all the weight I'd carry from practicing witchcraft. You think that's so weird. Why would there be this weight from practicing witchcraft? Oh yeah, it's the devil and it was just gone. I was just free and like I'm just crying oh, thank you Jesus. Amazing. And from that day forward I just there's no way I could serve anybody else, because he showed me his love, his power, his majesty, his authority all in one moment. It was the most beautiful thing. And now I'm just a crazy Jesus freak and I don't worship the devil anymore.
Speaker 1:Seems like a good thing to not do.
Speaker 3:You know, don't play on the freeway, don't worship the devil, that's always a good thing you mentioned a transition point, when seeds were planted and the blood on your hands. Comment from the, I'll say, maybe naive Christian.
Speaker 2:Totally naive, totally.
Speaker 3:Like you mentioned that, and the transition from seeds being planted to fascination with the occult. And in my very limited experience, there are nowadays there's Satanists that almost worship the idea of Satanism, just because it is a like an antithesis to the idea of God, so almost like a like making fun of the idea of there being a God. Well, if you have a God, then we'll have a God and we'll call him. These things are you know, but then there's also like occult worship. There's a difference in my mind. Is there a difference to you, or is like one a path to the other?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, for sure, so so. So this, this dumb guy, anton Leves, wrote what's called the Saint Satanic Bible. It's what I call Satanism light. It's what all these people adhere to the principles of complete selfishness, self worship. Just all about you is me, me, me, me, me. I worship me. And so that's a lot of times, when you hear about Satanist clubs or you know Satanist people, they're going to say oh well, we don't really believe Satan is real. It's just the complete outgrowth of realizing your true nature. That's what they'd say. That's the lie, that's the absolute lie. That's what Satan wants people to believe. Oh no, he's not real, he's just this adversary to the system, and the system is oppressive. And so you just have to do everything you have to to go against the system. That's being a Satanist. Go against the system because the system is oppressive. But true occultism knows that there are spiritual realities, there are angels of God and demons of hell, and they're both warring for your soul. And that's when you like, when you really taste the depth of the occult. This is like a super weighty thing. But like I knew the reality of hell, I knew my soul, literally tasted hell every day. You couldn't have told me there wasn't something beyond the last breath. I knew what my eternity looked like If I died in the position I was in.
Speaker 3:I knew, and yet I just did everything I could to reject, reject, reject, reject, yeah because that's my question when you said like a seed was planted, like blood on your hands, and then there was the shift toward the fascination. They call it like what, and we don't have to stay on this but that was like a root, transformative moment where it was like Jesus was shared and then this burden was placed on you and then the shift was not. I don't believe it was whatever the opposite.
Speaker 2:It was power.
Speaker 3:So what is it, yeah, that I'm interested in. What was that?
Speaker 2:That was like I was looking for a supernatural encounter and I wasn't finding it being a good Jew or doing Awana's I was looking for. I can't, I can't.
Speaker 3:I'm just having a picture of my little Awana's crown with the jewels I'm like, but that was powerful.
Speaker 1:I just can't deal with that language. I didn't find it being a good Jew or a Wana's.
Speaker 3:That's why I'm like no, no, no.
Speaker 2:What I wanted was a spiritual reality, something that absolutely filled the hole in my soul that I was looking for, and being a good Jew or going to Awana's was not it. And so I tried to fill that void myself with what I thought was powerful, and that was the darkness, and darkness never fills you, it only leads you feeling empty. And so so, yeah, that was that was it. And when I met Jesus for real and did it in full knowledge, and he fully revealed himself to me, I knew then, wow, this is power, this is absolute power, and this is what I was looking for.
Speaker 1:Jared is about to write someone a napkin. That's when you know that things are getting crazy.
Speaker 2:It's getting real now because he's writing.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to be quiet and let you go next, because Grant and I have had conversations, which means Grant tells me you can only ask two rebuttals and then you need to shut up. Like, I forgot my notebook.
Speaker 1:That's what that is right. That's what the comments.
Speaker 3:One of the comments literally said what do you remember the quote?
Speaker 1:It was like Grant is, you know, ask great questions, and then it's funny and Jared goes on rant sometimes and his content sometimes solid.
Speaker 3:It's like occasionally makes a point I'm like valid, hey, at least what.
Speaker 1:I took from that. That was, like Jared's content, sometimes solid. Let's bring it out when you shared it with me.
Speaker 3:He called me. He was like are you in a place to hear some light criticism? But might be helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was like what.
Speaker 3:I took away was someone said my contents occasionally All right, that's better.
Speaker 1:You know, we thought that this whole thing was going to be garbage and at least some people listen. It's kind of crazy what kind of audience we've got. I think that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really great. And you know, people are brutal online and we just say whatever we think. Most of the times, we say things we would never say to a person's face online, so, but at the same time, it is what's in our mind. So there's that truth, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you can just type it Exactly and just send it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, you go, you keyboard warriors, you go.
Speaker 1:It's totally fun, totally fun. That is a wild story, though Luckily I have not been exposed to anything like that. I've been more exposed to like it's almost, it's not worse, but it's like that, like watered down Christianity, like that like middle ground. Yeah, that's like. Probably my least favorite thing is just like they take like truth and then they get it like 80, 90 percent and then the last 10 percent garbage, yeah, and obviously, like you can't go 100 percent with truth. It's really, really hard unless you like quote Jesus. That's not a bad place to start. Yeah, that'll get you somewhere, but it's just I don't know. That's been. The biggest struggle for me is just like growing up in the church not being like exposed to a bunch of like Satanism or anything like that, but it was exposed to just a bunch of dudes that like said they believe, but and I was one of those dudes of just like saying you believe because, like why not say that it's what your family taught you.
Speaker 2:It's what the community taught you.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people, like a lot of young people that I know now, say the same thing. They're like oh, my friend said that he believes, so like I'm gonna say it because like I'll look weird if I don't, yep, and it's just, that's a much to me. It's, it's easy to see like Satanism to Christianity is like black, white, which is a way better to me, a better situation than like gray to a little less gray, yep, and I think that that's almost fortunate that you saw like, yeah, the, the darkness half, and then you were like, okay, jesus is way better than this, 100%, and it's not like you get that water down Jesus, yeah, it's like he's pretty good, but you know it's, there's a lot of things that are better and I shouldn't build my life on that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, yeah, and that goes like so my wife and I we like to say that we feel called to be missionaries in America to the church, and that's kind of cool and that seems like a strange thing, right, and this is going to be pretty offensive to some people. But the reality is is everything you just said there are so many people in the quote unquote church, big C church, but aren't really believers, mutes the mic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:It's weird, right, and so that is a hard place because there's thousands and thousands of people sitting in these churches who go now going to be really offensive. Okay, as Edison out as Protestant believers. Okay, we are Protestant believers. Um, that whole you know, believe in that whole Catholic system and and you know all the accoutrements that go along with it. Or do we? Because, week after week, we've got all these believers I'm just going to pick on men, because I'm a man got all these men who go to church, they, they, they do their penance. They go on Sunday morning, they do their penance and then, as soon as the bell rings, they go and they go to worship their real God. The TV, the sports, the whatever and they're completely devoid of what the real Jesus is. They're just. I got to go buy my time, I got to go pay my time, I got to go pay my penance so that I can go live my unholy life the rest of the week. Now I'm being harsh, but that's the reality. There's so many people that live that 50% Jesus, 70% Jesus, like you were just saying. We've been taught to live a Jesus and lifestyle. Jesus isn't the only option, he's just. You know. Oh yeah, jesus is my Lord and savior, but also I have all these other things and like, believe me, I love my, my hobbies and the stuff I do, but I'm a sold out crazy Jesus freak and and you got to see that the church has to wake up. We can't have that Jesus light like you were just talking about and unfortunately it is rampant in the church in America.
Speaker 1:So what's the all like? What's the best alternative, you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's unfortunately. It's about real discipleship. You know, like a lot of churches, you go to say we're a family. Well, I don't know too many families that line the kids up, kids up in rows behind each other and mom and dad just speak to them and they give them an oration and then that's it once a week. Okay, we're going to feed you today, kids, with what you need to carry you through the rest of the week, and then they do that and that's it. That's the only you know like connection they have to mom and dad. Well, that's what we say when we go to church. Oh, well, you know, we're a family and I'm going to feed you now and here's your food. Now, go live on that the rest of the week. In reality, you know, you guys, like you know, okay, you've been doing this mince group for four years. That's. We're supposed to be in these places where iron really does sharpen iron, where we can get mad at each other, we can yell at each other, we can love each other, hug each other, cry and be our true selves and let it all out. And next week we still love each other. But we're texting each other, we're calling each other, we're following up, I can come and I can be honest with you and that whole just crap idea. Men can't be emotional, men can't cry, men can't. I'm picking on men again because, as men, we're the ones who are supposed to carry the weight of the way this is supposed to be. America is the way America is, because men in the church have failed, and if men don't rise up and allow ourselves to be discipled and allow ourselves to be true to Jesus and each other, then we're just gonna keep going down this road that we're not called to. And so, anyways, that's just my initial thoughts.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, whenever there's a conversation that I feel like the Holy Spirit is involved in or God is like helping facilitate which are all conversations, but I guess sometimes I feel like there's a vein of discovery or truth that we're walking along together if that makes sense. And one of the hardest things to do on occasion is, in the conversation, to keep pushing away the things that are not really for the moment, to stay on topic and listen to what God is saying, because life is interesting and our stories are interesting and we could talk about anything, but so and it's also hard to say that and then say that maybe I have a thought of what that could be, because I'm just a man too, but one thing-.
Speaker 1:You got a napkin though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got a napkin, I got some notes on.
Speaker 1:Then I've been writing in pencil every time you actually thought about it, so let's go.
Speaker 3:So part of that, the reason I set that up, is like there's some reoccurring themes in what you've been sharing and one of them is, like I took notes, she said power is what I longed for and it was not found in being a good Jew or Awana's, and what I wrote is a question after that. But then there were some other reference points, which is like earlier you said Anton Levese book was essentially Satanism light, and then you even just used the language recently of, like I'm even gonna say like Jesus ism light, like there seems to be this juxtaposition of Satanism light and Jesus ism light, and then I really like what you said, which is super offensive, which is like real gods require work, blood, sweat, tears and face paint, and so like what's fascinating to me is I didn't grow up in a household that loves sports but, I've been around many households that love sports, like you mentioned, and if anybody's ever been to like a football game and you've been with a passionate family, it requires so much work to go set up. you do the whole thing Like if you go to the best tailgating, like it's a ton of work and then you get all the stuff ready and then you go inside and you watch the game and like there's devotion involved. And it's interesting to me that a lot of times we act like gods don't exist but we're devoting, like we devote ourselves in worship every day to something, and if we're really passionate we paint our faces and we rage against anybody that's not on that team. And it's interesting to me that like there's this idea that a light version of devotion is really true in any sense. So the question that came is how is weak faith pushing people toward embracing darkness and despair? Because what you described like being a good Jew or Awanas like a lot of times that sounds like a shallow. It sounds like the only invitation to a walk with Jesus. Is this like having an image of? Like a Lunchables Jesus, just like a Sunday school Lunchables Flannel board, awanas? like there's the title Lunchables Jesus I don't know why, but this image of Awanas, like here's the G, is pre-packaged, just the little thing in the cracker and like we, and this is what we do, and it feels like that's what pushes. Would that be valid?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let me say it this way so we go to church and it's communion Sunday, right? So what do we get for communion Sunday? We get a pre-packaged micro thin wafer. I got it. I knew that was worth it. We get a pre-packaged micro thin wafer and a less than thimble cup worthy of juice. Right, and it being real wine or not is not even a topic, that doesn't even matter, but it does matter, daniel. So it gets all passed around, we pop it open and we are told we're red scripture. Jesus said whenever you get together, whenever you do this, remember me. Whenever we do what? Oh, let's flip the Bible, ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. Okay, here we go, let's see. Here, let's look. Oh, oh yeah, whenever we eat together, whenever we get together, have fellowship together, whenever we pour out our hearts together and whenever we're in this place where we're totally open with one another, oh, you mean, not like in a room full of 500 or 2000 other people eating a wafer, thin cracker and a thimble of juice. Oh, okay, that's not what he had in mind. That's, that's so. That's the presentation of communion. And then we're released services over, all the men go home and prepare for true worship. We get in front of the TVs, we get on the face paint, the shirts, the gear, all the stuff. I literally, in one day, this is forever burned in my mind. Okay, and you can always see this with guys especially Church. Music is going and men are just like hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. And then the football game, yeah, and they're jumping up throwing crap across the room. Where is that warrior spirit when you're pouring your heart out to God? We have to be, we have to be, you know, holy, and it's supposed to be subdued and it's supposed to be like. Show me that in the Psalms, show me that in David. Show me, when David was bringing the ark into Jerusalem, how he was dancing around and his wife was accusing him of showing himself off to all the other ladies and he said I haven't yet begun to defile myself. And we just in America, men, when it comes to church, we just feel like we're supposed to be these reserved people. But then we can get in front of the. I pick on football a lot because I've seen it firsthand. I've watched in the same day a guy just sit there and like completely not move during singing time or any other part of church, and then, as soon as the football game started, we were showing the Super Bowl at church that day. He was like he jumped up the chair, shot back, almost hit somebody. He's throwing stuff around. I'm like, oh, I see who his real God is. Okay, and that's not a judgment. I'm like I'm not putting him down. We've just been taught that we can't be that passionate for Jesus.
Speaker 3:Right, like you said, that unless men lead, then the church or America or our families, I don't know a few words, but like there won't be, there won't be a space that I would say. The words in what you were saying were like that would hold true to anything, like it'll always be shallow to the degree.
Speaker 2:Always be shallow.
Speaker 3:But the converse argument would be like where is there space for that degree of passion in relation to Jesus, Like you can have that degree of passion in relation to the occult or to, I mean, there's Jehovah's Witness that are like just beating down the doors passionately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's usually ladies, though. Yeah, it is often ladies, so where's that?
Speaker 3:space for men, for the warrior spirit of men in relation to Christ, because on the other side, like we don't have, like we're not protecting our tribe, we're not, like we don't hunt for our food, we don't. This is getting into a whole other topic, but does it make sense?
Speaker 2:It is, but it's the same, it's still that same idea. Like men have to be just as spiritually if I can say this word without seeming weird spiritually violent Like we have to. There's a saying out there, popular saying, it's a little pithy phrase. It goes like this be the thermostat, not the thermometer. Men are typically just thermometers and we just sit there and let a cold temperature make us colder. Instead of being the thermostat, we should be setting the spiritual temperature in our houses, in our churches. If we're in a church, I'll be careful here. If we're in a corporate gathering space that doesn't allow men to be spiritually violent, and by that I just mean super passionate, with a lot of emotion and care for that body, that tribe, because that is the tribe right. So if we're in a place where we can't be that way and you feel like God has set you there, then you have to find other outlets outside of that environment. Still respect the environment that you're in but at the same time get with other guys, other men who want to experience that and want to be the thermostat in their family's lives, in their friends' lives.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Here's what I wanna avoid, because I have thought of that line of thinking. I'll tell you because, immediately, I mean I've said this a lot on the podcast but the first response that I had is throw a grenade in the church and let's go to war and then deconstruct and let's burn it to the ground, kind of thing, and I don't hear that from you. So that's not what I'm saying, so don't take that. But I feel like there is a space for that. There is a space for warrior king Jesus. There is that space, but there's also the space of the lamb. And how do you reconcile that of like? Obviously there is a place Super Bowl Sunday, let's charge the brigade Jesus and not Jesus David in the Ark, let's go to war. And then there's a space of like, washing feet and being gentle with people and loving people, like that. So where would you put that? And kind of the spiritual violence category?
Speaker 2:So here's how I would say it. If I'll use that like that washing feet example, if I'm in Walmart, this is gonna sound weird and I feel like Jesus is telling me hey, there's this person over there. Let's just say my wife and I are at Walmart and I just feel like this lady over here needs some ministry and I just need to go and pray for her and cut says just put your hands on her feet and just bless her feet. Wherever she goes, she's gonna be blessed. I'm not ashamed to do that, I'm not afraid to do that. That seems like a strange thing, a weird thing, but to me that's being spiritually violent, because I'm listening, I'm obeying, I'm following my Lord and I'm being soft. To me, spiritually, violence isn't all about just storming the gates. It's, first and foremost, just obeying Jesus, obeying his word first, and then, if I feel impressed to do something and it's not contrary to the word of God I do it, regardless of where I'm at. If I was in a restaurant one time and I felt impressed to pray for this lady, and my wife and I go up to her and go hey, I just really feel impressed to pray for you, is that okay? She's like, yeah, okay. Well, first let me ask you she says what God do you serve? That's a really good question.
Speaker 3:That's a great question. That's a really good question.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you asked that I serve Jesus and I serve Jesus, who went to the cross, who took our sins, who was raised on the third day. That's the God I serve. Okay, you can pray for me. This is awesome.
Speaker 1:What a smart person. You gotta mess with that. There's a lot of gods out there. You just always say yes actually in whose name?
Speaker 3:Right, right, so I like that.
Speaker 2:I was like I couldn't, I was just like man that's a really good question, see, but like to me again being spiritually violent. Because what am I being violent against? I'm not being violent against people. There is a real enemy that wants to see every person born in the image of God completely destroyed, and that is not any human enemy, that is a very real spiritual enemy. And my word says, God's word says that I'm to stand against that enemy and to I don't wrestle with flesh and blood but with that enemy. And so every time I feel like God says to go, pray for, go bless, go do, I am committing spiritual violence against that enemy by loving as a lamb that person. So hopefully, somewhere in the midst of all those words that I just vomited was an answer to your question.
Speaker 1:No, I understand it's like cause that's something I know you're saying, like spiritual violence and stuff, but I feel like you need to say the thing that you just said Cause. If you don't immediately, it's like all right, republican, I'm gonna go. You know, not Republican, you get what I'm saying, though you get typecasted into that like all right. I don't care what this guy's saying, screw that guy. I'm going for this, and I know that that wasn't your heart. No, not at all no the heart of man, but it just, it really didn't seem like you were saying that.
Speaker 2:Not at all. I just wanted to kind of change that. Yeah, no, and I appreciate you doing that because, okay, I'll be honest, I'm very conservative politically. But like right now there's, you know, the whole J6 thing is big in the news and everything.
Speaker 3:What's that?
Speaker 2:January back in the day there.
Speaker 3:But the bus apparently. Yeah, I know January 6th and J6.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so January 6th, big deal, right. I would say that anybody who you know knock down gates, rush the Capitol. I know people, most people, didn't inflict any violence, but here's what. I'd say Were they worshiping Jesus? That wasn't Jesus, that was the political thing. Like exactly, I'm like my Jesus. He only did one quote, unquote violent act in his earthly ministry and that was against the religious system.
Speaker 3:And he only did it one time.
Speaker 2:you know scripture, you know maybe two times, but like that's not a blanket, like okay, anytime you feel like you have to go, inflict violence. He was completely led by the father, completely moved by the Holy Spirit. The violence I'm talking about is not physical violence, because we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. The violence I'm talking about is putting the enemy under our feet, because Jesus paid such a deep price for our freedom. He paid such an absolute, priceless price for our freedom that we spend too much time fighting for victory in our lives because we think we're still under the oppression of the enemy. We still think we're somehow under this foot of darkness. But Jesus destroyed that darkness. He completely destroyed all their power. Roman six says you are no longer slaves to sin. So I'm not under that oppression anymore. Now I'm not fighting for victory, I'm fighting from victory. And the fight I'm in is not against anybody, it's against the enemy and it's to let them know hey, jesus already defeated you and that's what I'm coming after you for.
Speaker 3:You made me think. I mean there's like debate over this scripture, but almost exactly in these words and type of language. In Matthew 11, it says "'Truly I say to you, among those born of women there is a risen. No one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force".
Speaker 2:And that is why I did not quote that verse.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because that verse is not like it's, not in a good light, like it's.
Speaker 1:So what is that so like?
Speaker 3:it's debated on what's being argued here honestly.
Speaker 2:And we may never know, until we see Jesus, what is the true meaning of that. But in the exact Jesus like.
Speaker 3:These are words in red. He says from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence and the violent take it by force For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John, if you're willing to accept it, he is Elijah who has come for him. Who has ears to hear, let him hear. So we're not gonna go into a bunch of like commentaries, but the idea of the word, the root idea, is the word violence being a wicked thing, or whether or not there's a concept of just forceful advancement. That's right. And so there's a what I would argue. Sometimes we talk about truth being paradoxical, like the word. Paradox, in my mind, is like a coin being flipped and it landing on its edge. And so say all of that to bring up the idea of like. There is such a thing as forceful advancement, and the kingdom of heaven is forcefully advancing. Light is forcefully advancing on darkness. But I wrote down when you were writing lion inside and lamb outside. I'm thinking about the idea that the place that the kingdom, first and foremost, is forcefully advancing is inside my own heart, soul spirit. So, like you've said before, like one of Richard's quotes is like in the Lord's prayer, jesus says Father in heaven, hallelujah name. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And if you think about in scripture like we're made of earth and we're made of dirt, so your kingdom come on this earth.
Speaker 2:In this earth first.
Speaker 3:In this body, right here, this dirt of the so in this earth as it is in heaven. So all of that, to even add more parameters to what you're saying is like, I think, when, when we encounter that lion on the inside, that battling, we deal with that log in our own eye Like we deal with that, there is some degree of like my spirit needs to have a violent, forceful reaction to move toward sanctification, to lay hold of revelation and truth, like God is asking me to participate with him in passion and in movement, and like there is a place for that, even if I can't find it in a local body or a church or in a closet with me and Jesus. There is violence that needs to take place in my own heart, against my flesh, in establishing and eliminating and removing the footholds of the enemy. But generally, when that takes place, what happens outside of me and you guys can back this up is there's less violence required.
Speaker 2:There's peace in me.
Speaker 3:There's patients in me, there's kindness in me, there's less criticism and judgment in me. Jesus can come and say hey, what do you think about that person? What do you think about helping that person? When I've dealt in the closet in a violent manner with my own sin, then I have less of a less of a critical spirit towards others. So I can see someone clearly with blood-colored lenses. You know the blood of Christ-colored lenses because they've already seen me first, and so I think about it. That way is like there is very, very often, if not daily, a passionate, forceful quote violence required of the Christian walk that men are called to. It's just very rarely that we get to a place like Jesus that we can go knit a whip and do anything healthily and anything like that. The argument would be made like if you wanna have some violence where you're going to perfectly knit a whip and flip tables and then you're gonna go do that based on your perfect peace, let me know when you get there. Because we use that a lot of like well, jesus, flip tables is like yeah, without sinning.
Speaker 2:Right, he did it without sinning, so how about that? Yeah, and I think so again. I just wanna go back to that whole idea, because you're right, is that like? We can't just talk about violence? There has to be, it has to be better defined, because Jesus is our best example. There's a minister who says it this way Jesus is perfect theology. He is the perfect representation of the Father's will on earth. He came. Everything he did in his earthly ministry was a perfect reflection of how God wants us to be. So obviously Jesus never told us 12, all right, guys, let's get our swords. We're just storming the gates. Never, not once, did he do that. And if I could be so bold as to say even when he said, right before going to the cross before I told you not to take money bag, not to do this, not to do that, now I tell you to get a sword. If you don't have any, get a sword. That was for a very specific reason, in a very limited timeframe. He's calling the church to arm ourselves and be able to storm the gates. But that's a rabbit trail. I will say this about again, about that whole violence thing. This is the only thing I'll refer to. That verse in Matthew about the kingdom of God suffers violence. There's a Greek word, ekbalo. It's the Greek word that's used almost every time Jesus casts out a demon. He casts out a demon. It means to forcefully expel. Okay, we see that word used one other time in this way. Jesus said hey, there's a massive harvest right in front of you. You guys need to pray that the Lord of the harvest will ekbalo laborers, forcefully send out laborers into the harvest. That's the kind of spiritual violence I'm talking about. As men, we need to be so sensitive to what's going on around us. There is a harvest of people just in our own churches who are 50%, 60%, 80%. You know, if we would just be spiritually violent, aka at Baloo, forcefully go out as laborers, we could completely turn around our communities, turn around our families. There'd be less divorce, there'd be less abuse, there'd be less sex trafficking. Men have it in their power to completely change the culture. If we would just and Baloo ourselves forcefully, send ourselves out on behalf of the lamb to minister the same way Jesus did. And a really great example of that is when the woman cotton adultery was brought to him. He treated her with such gentleness, such kindness, such mercy. And that's how we need to be when other people, sins are exposed. We're not all about you, pig, and that's what we see a lot.
Speaker 3:And I think maybe what is being said here, what is even being revealed, is there's not. It can be argued for men. Well, where could you have passion? Where could you take that warrior spirit? Where could you offer the same level of devotion and blood and sweat and tears as you can for that football team? And it be acceptable and oftentimes it may not be acceptable in your workplace, or it may not be acceptable on Sunday morning, or it may not be, but you can take it to the front lines of the needy and to the broken and to the hurting. And the first place you can take it is to your own needy, broken heart. You can take the spirit of the Lord to your abuse and to the bondage and to the memories, the morning and the wounds that you haven't, that you won't go near and you won't touch because you're terrified of them or because you're just surviving. And to me, like that's what I hear you saying is like, first and foremost, that warrior King Jesus can go with you to those places and you can find bondage, be broken, you can find healing, you come against that pornography in a way that is just so powerful and you can pray to the Lord. God, make me hate what you hate, make me love what you love, and you can. You can walk the boundaries of your home and pray over it and pray that angels be set and pray and bring passion into your own life and heart and and and passion into your wife and your children. And it just sometimes I feel like the enemy, the world, the flesh, like they, they're screaming that there's nowhere for you as a man to have forceful advancement and that's just a lie. Like there are more places in there have ever been for your passion to be play, to be put, to be worked on. It's just the one place that that it's not to begin is is in everybody else's problems. Like, and that's that's the last like lie, if you will is like well, we could spend our whole lives being busy bodies fixing everybody else's issues. But our own property, our own home, if you will just be overrun with it's almost like Mount nourishment of property, like just be overrun and not being cared for, and that's that's a sin of my own life. Like it's easier to clean somebody else's house, yeah, than it is to work on your own and you get a lot more praise for it, you get a lot more thanks for it. You get a lot more. Like nobody's showing up at your door and like good job taking out your own trash and fixing it. Like nobody shows up for that. So I don't know, I'm ranting a little bit, but like that's even of my own spirit, of like man. What does it look like to be passionate and forceful and the kingdom moving with force?
Speaker 1:in my own household First something that I don't want to lose is the idea that just God doesn't, because I feel like we've said we a lot, yeah, and I don't want to like there is a part for us to play, but I immediately think of, like Samson, that just God just like used him. Yeah, he's like not a good dude. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like I just don't want to lose, like you said, just the power of God, just like the power of Jesus, about how like we are hopeless and helpless without him. Yes, like it's not like okay, I can, you know, break the bond that you my own life? Not at all. It's like that's Christ. And I love what you said about bringing you know warrior king Jesus with you, but it's like you're not bringing him with you. He's he's. He's bringing you with him.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's already there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not like hey, come on man, it's like we're doing this.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, so I don't want to lose that, that's really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's the power of Christ.
Speaker 2:The only power we have is in sharing his gospel, because the word says that it is powerful. It is powerful, and Paul says I'm not ashamed of the power of my God or his power, god or his gospel. And so Jared certain me quote this before. So my favorite verse is in the Bible, our second Corinthians three, 16 through 18. And it starts by saying that whenever somebody comes to God, whenever somebody comes to Jesus, the veil that exists in this world is removed. Now, for the first time, you're actually able to see clearly, right. And then it goes on to say Now the Lord is the spirit. And where the spirit of the Lord is this goes back to what you're saying, right when the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. That's the only way that exists, only way. And then it goes down to say but we, those who have had the veil removed, but we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed from glory to glory by the spirit of the Lord. That's all, 100%. Only through the power of Jesus and his Holy Spirit working in us. That's the only way it gets done. But there has to be that first step, and that's from Jesus too. You know, it's like I typically don't argue with people that don't have a relationship with Jesus, for this very reason. There's a veil. You can't logic past a veil Because, no matter what I say, no matter how holy it is, if Holy Spirit isn't working on their heart, ready to remove that veil, all they hear is blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah and went for that one.
Speaker 3:Through the disciples in Jesus. Three years walking with him it's like most of the time.
Speaker 1:But even the idea of like those with ears to hear, like you just read that births. I've read Matthew. I don't know what that means. I might as well have not read that.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean, right? Oh, you're like that's what in the Bible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I've read Matthew multiple times and it's like where is?
Speaker 2:that, yeah, wait, what Bible are you reading?
Speaker 1:So it's like I don't know, I don't think that it's obviously like the veil is removed, but there's still so many things of like, like. That's the first time I heard that and I've read that part. Why don't I stop with that part? Because that's, that's super interesting. I'm going to have to reread that little section because what the heck is that Right? Good luck, like I'm like what is that Okay?
Speaker 2:Whether it's whether it's forces coming against the kingdom of God or the kingdom of God bringing Jesus, violence, which is holy, which is the lamb, which is peace, which is the fruit of the spirit Right. And that goes back to what you were saying, jared, about. Like we don't, none of us can generally see the raging seas that go on in each side inside of a man or a woman. But every time we allow ourselves to let the Holy Spirit work in us and do that deep, deep, deep, deep work in us, we can all see the fruit of that, because I can see when you're walking in more self-control, when you're walking in more love, mercy, kindness, gentleness, you know, or vice versa. Wow, hey, homeboy, you need to get closer to Jesus, because you kind of suck right now.
Speaker 3:It's easy to see.
Speaker 2:It's 100% easy to see, Like, have you been spending time with Jesus? Because you're kind of being a well anyways, I don't want to say You're going to be a, not Jesus.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to say the words, because that would make me a not.
Speaker 2:Jesus, that would be bad on me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like that you said the raging seas and I like what Grant said about it's not Jesus. You're not taking him with you. He's already there because, like, the two things in my mind are on the cross. He said it is finished, and I think of that in terms of, like every moment of abuse, every pain, past, present or future, like Jesus is already there, prevailing over every memory and every moment. So if your dad abused you as a child, or if you've been trafficked or, if you like, if the enemy has trafficked you through the realm of darkness in a myriad of different ways, we'll put it that way, like Jesus was there for every moment of each one of those, and you're not dragging him to something that he didn't see before. And he's like my heavens, this was terrible. Like it's that he was already there. And so I love that you said the raging seas, because I have that imagery of the disciples on the boat when the seas are raging. Jesus is already there. He's just taken a nap, man. And he's completely at peace. But the quote violence or the kingdom of heaven being encountered by force is when these disciples release their decorum and they release the proper measure of how to act and they lose their crap and finally run downstairs. They're like are you not aware that we're drowning? And it's like that's violent, like you've ever been woken up from a nap by some? Like raging lunatics or like I'm thinking of like 12, four year olds, right?
Speaker 2:now, just like losing, Just like huh huh.
Speaker 3:And then what Jesus does is like wake up, and it's like what is hap? And he stands up and I just have this image of him being like all right, seas quiet, and then like everything goes still. And then he turns to the children and it's like what? Like where's your faith? Like what it's almost like a reprimand of like I'm here, like why are you losing it? But the whole point of me saying I, like my whole imagery of mine, is like through that, like honest, messy, forceful, like genuine willingness to bring what those disciples were actually feeling to Jesus, like they encountered the kingdom of heaven and then there was peace. And that's kind of sometimes what I feel like happens in the human heart when, like, you just go to God and you're just radically like honest, like you said before, no matter how many times I flipped him off or no matter how many times, like you rage at the Lord, and then you encounter the king of heaven who says to even the waters be still and they be still, and then you're very quiet. And you go oh who was sleeping in that book?
Speaker 2:I think so. So this is this one I thought a lot about, and I'm going to say this in this is for anybody who's going through the midst of the raging seas. So the greatest lesson we can learn from that isn't that Jesus can calm the storm, it's that in the midst of the raging seas he was asleep, he had total peace. He didn't have to go and say peace, be still. That was not his original design. He wouldn't have done that if the disciples didn't freak out. What he wanted them to see was like hey guys, just come and sleep with me, and we're just going to sleep right through the storm and we're going to get to the other side because I know where I'm going and I know what I have to accomplish and no storm is going to stop me from getting there. And when you know the Jesus who abides in you and who is directing you and who is already there ahead of you Don't forget about that point he's already there ahead of you. So if you're, if you're like, yeah, jesus really wants me to go in this direction, and then all of a sudden Like, oh man, every time I try to follow Jesus, the storms just come. Yeah, just chill out, the storms will stop because he's taking you to the other side. And so there's a real, powerful dynamic in knowing that we can be at complete peace in the midst of all the raging seas. And yes, there are times. Last night I had this obnoxious cricket right outside my door. It was the loudest cricket I've ever heard so loud and it was just constant. Me, my son, comes in. He's like dad's cricket. I'm like, yeah, I've looked for him, I don't know where he is. Finally, I'm like, okay, I Could fall asleep, not a problem. But in the name of Jesus, I just command Cricket to be silent. I command you to be silent right now, in Jesus name. And in 30 seconds the cricket stopped chirping. So whether the cricket died.
Speaker 3:Came along and ate him.
Speaker 2:I don't give a rip. All I know is that the storm went silent and I was able to go to sleep.
Speaker 1:The pre-ordained cricket.
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe that's the the end. No, and Richard, you can comment on this, that even like Kind of the prayer of Shadrack me. Second, I'm gonna go like Whether the storm is silent, whether it's not, whether there is a raging of the machine, whether there's a burning in Furno, like their prayers, so fascinating because the faith was He'll be with us no matter what so that the peace that came out of him and saw this thing, the storm was, it was him, yeah, and so that would maybe be even the final like exclamation point is like you can pray in such a way that, like, whether the cricket dies or the house burns down or the like, my prevailing peace, the Prince of Peace, scripture calls, like you're here with me and Scripture highlights that right, like Psalm 23, in the valley of shadow death, like where is that table placed? Yeah, and in the midst of the enemies and the sea, and like when he calls Peter out of the boat. Peter, it's funny, I kind of see the. The Peter argument or question is like when you Called out Satan and you were like give me the thing. I kind of see like Peter, like, if that's, you call me out there, right, and then like immediately come on, right and. I almost see like Peter responding before he thinks. Yeah, and then you're like and then he's like on the water right, oh yeah, we finally started. No, what am I doing? Yeah, and then there's that call back later, like when Peter meets Jesus on the shore, again he leaps out of the boat. Again Peter, and but Peter in the leaping out of boats fascinating. But what would you say about like when? Like the sea not being the point, because that was kind of what you said about like the sea not being the point, and and Jesus having peace regardless? Because that's still the point of our prayer, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I'll say it this way Is it okay if I pray something? Yeah, yeah, so I, you know, I've, I've a lot of what I've said, I've said towards men. Only because I'm a man, I'm, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I love being a man and I don't I don't want to at all come across like Bashing men at all I just know that we're called to a higher, there's a higher calling for us, and, and, and so I believe there is a raging sea that's trying to steal the total peace of Jesus in men, that we're striving for something that is completely outside of what he's called us to be and what he desires us to be, and so I would, I would say about that, I would say this to men, because I, I just want to just make sure that I'm not coming across In in any kind of negative light, because I don't mean to Father, I just ask you to just touch the hearts of men who are desperate, who are desperate to know you and desperate to encounter you. You so love the heart of your men that you've created, you so love men, god, you, you've put your stamp of identity on them and I'm just asking you right now, lord, please reveal your nature to men, that men would rise up and and be, be those Jesus warriors, where you're already there, you're already encountering them, you're already, you've already gone ahead of them. You've seen it all, lord, you already know the beginning from the end. You are the Alpha and the Omega. So, jesus, I just asked that you would Calm the raging seas and in men, that, that, that nature that we have, that we have to perform, we have to outdo, we have to live beyond our own means, we have to Accomplish these things on our own. There's just a this, this mentality that we have to work hard to accomplish all these things. But, jesus, you did it, you did the work, you performed what was necessary for us, what we absolutely can't do. So I just ask you to just Put that burden on men's hearts, the burden to release, the burden to let go of the storm, the burden to rest. God, men need to rest. Find that rest in you. You are the safest place to be in the midst of any storm. So, jesus, please just Just help men to come to that place where they can fully trust you, fully yield to you, fully surrender and Worship you with their whole heart, their whole mind, their whole body, every part of their being. God Lord, I just pray that you would grant the grace to every man. Remove the veil. Let us press into you in Jesus name.
Speaker 1:Not a bad place to end. What are these? What are these OTCs always get so heavy.
Speaker 3:Man what?
Speaker 1:are they always get so heavy? Because we're being sincere and honest the OTC man, the OTC on the OTC Baby. Thanks for listening to the across the counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.
