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Ever questioned what our reality would look like in the absence of God or religion? Or how our perceptions can shape our reality?
In this OTC Episode:
• We explore the essential need for an external truth and reference point in defining reality.
• Grant shares where the podcast founds its roots near a Greek Orthodox monastery talking with a Freemason.
• We talk through the perceived disagreements among Christians, the power of unity, and the significance of mercy and understanding in our interactions with others.
• We emphasize that the Church of Jesus is supremely unified and powerful, despite the diversity of its followers.
Listening to this episode, you will hear our hearts for the show and how we hope the God is glorified through our feeble attempts to learn and grow.
So, are you ready for some wacky thought experiments?
Connect with ATC:
Website: www.atcpodcast.com
Instagram: @acrossthecounterpod
So what do you want to?
Speaker 2:talk like that For anybody listening. Grant asked me that I started to speak and then he hit record let's just go back. Well, my thought was, the first comment that we ever got when we released this podcast was Literally just the word heretic as a comment. And you sent me a photo and we high-fived and it was like yeah, we're in the right camp. But on this was my thought coming in driving in today was you know, this podcast is Not for everybody and we're not making it for everybody and there's a specific group of people that, on the far Extremes, will hate this podcast for extremely different reasons, like on opposite ends facts. We'll have vitriol on hatred and then there's a small group of people on the left and right of that that just really don't have an opinion and don't care, and then to Me, this podcast is for the few in the middle that are just looking and just interested and learning and listening to others. So what I wanted to talk about, or to hear your thoughts on, because you were the initiator of this podcast, is Like the founding house. Yeah, the founding house, let's go. So the idea that hit me is like why even venture into this realm to like pretty much open the door for attack, for saying that what we're doing is heresy, like we weren't unaware when we began recording and inviting the guests that were inviting, like we actually pretty much bet that the first comment was gonna be heresy.
Speaker 1:That's facts.
Speaker 2:It's just surprising that it wasn't heretic, that we thought I didn't know it's gonna be so personal, but somehow that made it better Never makes you sleep at night. Yeah, yeah, the idea, like the impetus of the podcast, how it grew and Just all of that, yeah, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1:So I just want to start it for fun. So I wasn't like anticipating the One, the level of listeners, because that's fun, yeah, like good listenership, if you will. So I appreciate you guys. And To just the backlash. Obviously there was gonna be positive and negative comments, but I didn't think it would go straight. You guys suck. But there's also this podcast change my life. We've gotten that yeah yeah, they didn't say change it for the better though they did not it seemed positive. This podcast changed my life. It sounds good, but I'm gonna change that just in a negative direction. So that totally could have it. But no, we've gotten positive and negative stuff, but just the main Reason I wanted to do it is one because I wanted to learn. So I wanted to talk to people that are smarter, wiser and different than me and just listen to what they have to say and try my best to shut up and not argue with them, not debate them and just listen to their stories and try to find more common ground. Then trying to do a debate podcast because man, do I love debating like that that would have been really fun. But also this is just a really good learning exercise for me and that's something that I've learned of just more how to listen through a podcast which sounds stupid. Like Podcasts you talk, but like I really have learned better listening skills Through this bad boy. So you know all of the above on that.
Speaker 2:We technically picked a model that said we're going to interview people and be forced to listen. So there is that.
Speaker 1:So at least you leaned into a Podcast model that wasn't just you talking and we wrote it all out on a piece of paper and we modeled it and we saw Demographics of what would appeal to who and we did that stuff right.
Speaker 2:Is that a jet? Pretty sure we just shot a cannonball in a direction against Dave and Ashley Willis's advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they said bullets, not cannons, and we said, if we have a few more cannons to spare, might as well shoot a cannon. Are they smarter and wiser than the both of us? Yes, we figured that out once. We shoot a cannon and miss.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, but it and the analogy was beautiful, like hey, you're gonna shoot cannonballs, but take a few shots with some bullets first and make sure that you're on target and then launch your big attack.
Speaker 1:Very wise advice.
Speaker 2:We just didn't do that.
Speaker 1:We just went all in.
Speaker 2:I think what comes to mind for me yeah, it is a lot of our comments have been man, I've just been looking for a Christian podcast or a podcast with Christian values. That it's funny and maybe in some ways like more lighthearted, not intense or full of like anger and judgment, and I guess that has been a lot of the spirit in which I felt we've moved toward making space for people to have honest conversations, like internally. There is a ton that we've heard or listened to and others on this podcast that we just don't fundamentally agree with. But one thing that seems to be like less valuable in our society now is that human beings are made in the image of God and are worthy of being listened to, and so something that occurs to me a lot is the idea that you ever heard this statement like perspective is reality, someone's perspective, their beliefs, what they see and think. That is the reality that they live in All right, I'm going to stop you right there.
Speaker 1:Here's a fun thought Go ahead. Okay, if perspective is reality, so what? Let's just take a moment and throw God and religion just in the trash just for this little conversation. So we're both not religious.
Speaker 2:You just said take God and religion and throw them in the trash, so we're definitely going to get some.
Speaker 1:Just for the next minutes, there's a thought exercise, not a real thing.
Speaker 2:So now we're both not religious, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a thought exercise. What would you say is the realest thing there is?
Speaker 2:Oh Lord, we haven't even smoked anything, nor do we. I'm just saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're definitely getting a hair tuck on this.
Speaker 2:Continue.
Speaker 1:So what would you say? If you're like, hey, I'm going to bet everything on this, this is what I can prove, this is the realest thing, what would you say?
Speaker 2:So for me personally you said another thing. This is what I can prove and this is the realest thing To me. The realest thing in reality is just thought, like consciousness. The only thing that I know, to whatever degree I can know anything, is that I have thoughts facts.
Speaker 1:So what is that philosophy saying that is like, that people like take out of context all the time it's, which will certainly do.
Speaker 2:Continue. It's no, I it's, I am I don't know, let's, just let's.
Speaker 1:And man, is he thinketh or no? It's, I am what I think.
Speaker 2:I am or I think therefore.
Speaker 1:I am, I think.
Speaker 2:Therefore, I am there, it is, I think therefore, I am Dude, you got there, well done, which is that Saying which a lot of people think oh, manifest your thoughts in the reality.
Speaker 1:But it just means literally, like I can think that therefore I exist, and that's all I know for sure, yeah, so that's what I'm getting at. And the reason I brought this up is and there is a reason for the record the reason that I brought this up is because and this explains the reason for this, explains to me, like I was like thinking through this thought of, like this explains a lot of the modern ideology of the West, of, like our line of thinking, because it's, if consciousness is the realest thing, there is because you had to throw God away for a second, because obviously, answer would be what's the realest thing? And it's like God defines reality. Yeah, our reality is made in him. He's the realest thing. We could be anything, but God is for sure.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So that would be the answer. That's why I wanted to say it yeah. So if consciousness is the realest thing, then you come to that realization, that perception is reality. So what you perceive is reality. So if you use those as X and Y inputs on, an equation you say, basically, this is my reality, my consciousness is a realist thing, so that would equal a bunch of nonsense. That would equal Okay, so my thoughts are more real than a table. That would be a rational conclusion based on that. And if God is the input in that, it just makes a lot more sense in that equation. So you could be like okay, mental illness is more real than anything, than a car wreck or something like that. Or you could say that my identity is the realist thing and nobody can tell me who I am, because consciousness is reality and nothing outside of it defines it. So this would be like my identity is my reality, so I can be anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fundamental nature of what you're saying is, if there isn't something or at least I'm not going to try to sound too smart, no- we're both dumb. But what you're saying? Yeah, but we're getting there, we're trying our best. We're making some smart people angry, but that's half the fun While they're trying to follow this train of thought.
Speaker 1:Not at us. Yeah, it's just like it's kind of a comment, this guy's making some.
Speaker 2:No, no, what I think you're saying is the fundamental nature of disconnecting An anchor of reality from something outside of you. If you take God of the picture and then you say Perception is reality, that means I define reality based on what I perceive and that's a moving target. And so, like identity, like belief, like mental illness, hallucinations another relative truth a relative truth, and so it's a continuation of moving target a relative truth, and then convincing one another of anything being true Becomes a lot more difficult, because everybody doesn't hate have the same reference points of what they believe to be real. It me it. If that were the case, if, for some reason, any society disconnected themselves from an external Truth, and such as maybe God, then that then that society would then have a very confusing reality when there was no real reference point of anything actually having un Unchangeable truth. So is that kind of what you're touching on?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and it's things that we've heard of the podcast too, Mm-hmm of as long as like the whole thing of do no harm, like, as long as you're not harming someone else, then almost everything's fair game. Right, that would be. We've heard that. Yeah, just that would be the not religion, but that's like their mantra for life. It's just, it's, it's the doctor thing. Whatever you know I'm talking about, it's like the physicians Creed or something do no harm. Yeah, I don't know there's something like that, but just the idea of don't cause pain to anyone else and Don't hurt anyone, and then everything else is fair game. And there's lots of things that are wrong with that, obviously. Because, can I not? Meth doesn't hurt anybody else, can I just?
Speaker 2:mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Why is it meth like like that sort of?
Speaker 2:yeah, and even become that. Even in of itself it becomes a complicated conversation because you can't track the ripple effects of your actions. So, okay, meth doesn't hurt anyone, like that is a way to say that, but also like it depends on how it got there. It depends on, like the effects is gonna have on you, like, yeah, the cost-benefit analysis, like the value that you as a person were supposed to have to society in this city, and then now you're not. And I think my reason for bringing up the idea, though, of perception being reality is, to some degree, if someone has had trauma in their life or they've been abused. Say that someone has been abused by men, a young lady or a young man, and they, they grow up and there's a certain type of man with a certain type of build, like a man with a beard, and that was the type of person that abused them in their childhood. Then they could have a perception that any man with a beard is an evil man.
Speaker 1:Hmm, and they're one. Do good for me or me right.
Speaker 2:So that perception that is a reality for that child, but it is not a true. It's not a truth about reality, but there's a perception that is a reality for that child. So I mean by that is that child is living in a world where that is a representative Statement of something that is true and what's interesting about and this is not gonna be the right word, but I'm just gonna make up something. So I get what's interesting about reality bias, if that's a word, is the reality you believe to be true, is the thing you look for to make true, and so then that child could be walking around and every person they see with a beard. If they turn and look at them, they see anger or resentment or Judgment in their eyes, and that could not be coming from them, but it could be something that they're painting onto a person because of what they perceive. Or Another example would be a person that believes that everyone's out to get them, and so then they everything that ever happens is Like selfishly attributed to people personally having a motive to make them fail, where sometimes, like life is just happening and Somebody didn't personally have, personally have an aggressive motive. But then, let's say, you respond that way and then you lash out in anger. You didn't have an enemy, but now you do have an enemy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's visualization. Yeah, that's what that is. Okay, all right, yeah, what is what you get? Yeah, you know how those self-help gurus are like.
Speaker 2:if you Power to that bro.
Speaker 1:But it's that whole thing and also goes in the negative sense. If you think everybody's out to get you, then At some point you probably will make decisions that will lead everyone.
Speaker 2:You're running. If, yeah, if you'll live your life in anxiety and fear, you won't open yourself for the relationship, like you, will create enemies, not because they were your enemies, but because they're trying to protect themselves from your insanity there we go the only reason. Okay, so why do we go on this like Frickin mushroom trip? The reason that we went and we don't do drugs, guys. That's what's embarrassing about this podcast and you trying to track our train of thought. This is just like real, pure Raw, just Jared and Grant trying to have a train of thought. So welcome, welcome and welcome to the our minds.
Speaker 1:This is not a good antidote for being. This is definitely not this is like what you wanted, I'm sure this is proving they thought to be true.
Speaker 2:It's not what you want ten minutes in, you said throw God in the trash.
Speaker 1:We're definitely for a conversation. It's a thought, it's a thought experiment, all right.
Speaker 2:So the reason I brought this up was the idea that if the gospel is the concept that God I like see as Lewis's version, in the great divorce where he talks about if any of you have read it there's this idea of God becoming smaller and so like he descended down to the place of the people. And in the great divorce there's an example of God becoming smaller and that idea it's really cool and Essentially Lewis says like only the greatest of us could have gone, gotten so small. And so the reason I say that not to be confusing is like God took all of his Godhood and all of his self and all of his perfection and understanding of all reality and then chose to Become a baby, like to become a human baby, and he an old word as he condescended to us, like he came to Descend and be with us, or to lower a condescending, to lean himself down, and so sometimes I think that the idea of drawing someone into a loving embrace of truth it often sounds like this whole concept of telling them that they're wrong. But in a lot of ways what God did was he came to be with us in manual, like God with us, and in being with us and participating in life and giving us an example. He led us on a merry journey of what it looked like to To walk with truth, to walk with the Heavenly Father, and he did call out Pharisees and Sadducees and those who were wrong, but a lot of his life also was spent just like being with sinners, and so what's interesting to me is like the idea of sitting with people on a podcast that I don't agree with. If I have the humility to sit and listen and I do believe that some portion of what they're saying is connected to a character of God or some piece of truth. Like we can, we can disagree, but we can still learn from one another. If that makes sense, we can still grow, and it doesn't have to be my job to Sit across a table or across the counter, as it were, from someone and then just change their perspective. I can sit with them and we can give our opinion on what truth is and what reality is hinged upon, and then, to me, our listeners have the ability to listen and determine for themselves which perspective is worthy of having confidence in, if that makes sense. So we've talked about that before essentially giving such a broad. What would it be Like a broad cut of many different belief systems and many different people who claim the faith of Jesus like. Our hope is that, at the end of the day, what our listeners and ourselves, like what we really see is the gospel from a lot of different perspectives, and then, all that being said, a lot of those perspectives could be wrong, but sitting with a person and saying their perspective that is reality is worthy of being heard, to me feels like a place of honor.
Speaker 1:But also we might be wrong. We might be wrong. You know, very valid. You gotta put that up there. Maybe Catholicism is 100% the way to go. Everything they have is solid. I don't believe that, but maybe that's right, yeah and. But there's obviously like logical arguments to get yourself in and out of that. But I Really don't think that there's necessarily this huge. I don't think that our division is as great as it seems. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that. You brought up like the. We may be wrong. Even the idea of being across the counter is the willingness to listen and and except if you're wrong. Yeah, so you brought up like with Catholicism. It made me think of you've told the story a few times, I don't know if you've told it like really clearly and directly in the podcast but you met it wasn't a Catholic guy, but you were in like a Catholic region of another country and you met a Mason. So there was like a real impetus point as well for the thought of this podcast beginning. Yeah, that was huge and then it started to lean into the Catholicism and stuff. But give, tell that story just so somebody can actually like hear where this all started.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this was in Greece. I was on my honeymoon. No, dad got it, it's greaser France I'm getting, because we went to Greece, france, italy and Dora and it was some where in in one of those countries, I'm pretty sure Greece. I'm gonna say Greece for this.
Speaker 2:You've said Greece every other time.
Speaker 1:There we go, then we're good. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna say. So it was in Greece. We were staying at this Airbnb and the Airbnb host guy it was the guy, obviously you own the Airbnb and we got a talking or whatever, and I don't even know how religion got brought up. Oh, I do know how it's, cuz I brought up it was I was making a joke that Basically, I couldn't figure out who was Greek Orthodox and who was Catholic in various Situations. You know, oh, we're in this cool monastery and it was in Greece, and I was like, oh, these guys are all Catholic. And then I was like, wait a second, I'm an idiot, it's Greek Orthodox.
Speaker 2:Cuz we're in Greece. Yeah, and I was true, though. Yeah, they were Greek.
Speaker 1:Orthodox. So I was like okay, so I had that conversation with them. You know, we both laughed pretty hard because it was like, oh, you're an idiot, you went to the monastery. It's not gonna be Catholic up there, come on man. So we had that conversation.
Speaker 2:So it was Greece. Yeah, okay, double down.
Speaker 1:Now we're getting there, it's gotta be great. So it's talking to this guy. That's how religion came up. And he was like what do you believe? And I said I'm just. I said something along the lines of I'm a classic Christian in the United States, whatever that means. I was just like, I just want to say I'm a classic. I didn't want to be like go into the full theology of everything just be like I'm a Christian yeah from the US specific brand of Christianity. What are? There's billions of different Christians that all don't agree. That one and and dude basically said something along the lines of he was like I'm a Freemason, dude was a Freemason, which, basically, to be a Freemason, one of the things is you have to believe in a higher power, but it doesn't have to be like Jesus, right, like it can be just the supreme being of something, right? So that was his deal. And he said he was just Talking to me so much about like unity, about like how much Freemasons had unity and, no matter where you go, there's this like brotherhood of the Freemasons kind of thing. And he was like the reason I'll never be a Christian is Because you guys don't have unity, like you can't agree on anything and the Freemasons Obviously don't agree on everything, but they all are Freemasons, so they don't have. They're not like, hey, I believe in Jesus, I'm a Freemason. It's like, alright, we have this code or whatever, but we're all brothers and we're all looking to help each other out in the Freemason thing, which obviously there's a bunch of weird stuff with Freemasons. Oh yes but at the end of the day, that really made me like, look and be like Is that really true? Was my first thought. Because it's, there's Catholics right, there's like billions of people that are all like we're on the same team, let's go. So that feels like pretty good unity right there. So you got to at least give Catholics that Also. Greek Orthodox has a good bit of people, but there's also Russian Orthodox and this.
Speaker 2:All that stuff.
Speaker 1:All that to say that it was really the calling out of like how Christians just don't have Like unity on a large scale in the United States, bugged me pretty hard and it I didn't have a good rebuttal. It wasn't like no man. It was like I know a Baptist antiprespirant church that don't get along at all. It's like that come it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so then you set about with the desire to interview some people and essentially go through different denominations and say, like why tell me what? Like, why are there so substantial walls between us? Yeah, but instead of you, like, seeking to argue that anybody was wrong, you tried in my opinion you took a really humble heart to just go and sit and say just tell me, like tell me how what you believe is different and why you feel that there is division. And then you were just gonna move through different denominations Until you got to the end of all of them. So I seem like the day you died, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like eventually it was gonna get a non-denom and just it's gonna be like non-denominational, and then just there's billions of ever since and then you did a bunch of Catholics back to back and got Super bored and changed the entire vision of the mission. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Accurate.
Speaker 1:I never got past the Greek Orthodox Super interesting, by the way, I like to word at his church and it was like awesome and they had like Gorgeous paintings and whatever that big dome thing is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whatever I don't know, but all Greek Orthodox have the dome.
Speaker 1:Yeah whatever that bad boy is sick.
Speaker 2:I got a thought experiment for you.
Speaker 1:Oh, here we go. We're gonna cut the last 20 minutes.
Speaker 2:How dare you? I Promise this won't be as trippy as the first thought experiment on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm the one that led us into the Apologize okay. Bro, what do you think about the universe man?
Speaker 2:All right. So don't throw anything in the trash necessarily, but if I'm not God maybe, but for the experiment. But we don't have to right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a dabby.
Speaker 2:Let's just picture the idea in all societies and all people, or just a society called a hundred people, is easy enough that there are those who say in word things that they agree with or select certain I'll call it like corners that they're gonna like stake their ground on whether it's like I got you right, left, I'm whatever, and so they say that in word, but then, underneath, that is the actual deed of people is what they actually do. So, first and foremost, do people, the people that say one thing but do another thing are they in agreement with what they say or with what they do?
Speaker 1:Define agreement. Did do it, jordan Peter.
Speaker 2:What do you mean by agree?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a simple it's. Jesus had something to say about that. It's just it's. You can't go by what they say, it's what they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's less all of us, and I would say, if Jordan Peterson is like to find agreement, it's like there's a thing that we hope that we could be. That's a hope, but then there's just what you do, and so you can say whatever you want about what you believe, but then your actions dictate the actual truth of that.
Speaker 1:That's fact.
Speaker 2:So here's the interesting. The thought experiment is take all of society, like of the whole world, the, the person from the outside looking in, that says Christian Christians are not in agreement. They're saying the broad level. People who claim the name of Christ and say that they're Christians are not in agreement, and I agree with them. But then if you and I sat down and said let's look at what the attributes of actual Christians are, those that bleed, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control. Those are in pursuit of the glory of God for the goodness of men, those who are Sacrificially loving and repenting and seeking out meekness and glorifying God with their actions, like those people, if defined that way, everybody in the world that is pursuing Christ in that way, is continually in agreement Because they're perfectly in union in the moments that their actions are actually in alignment With the character and the nature of God. So what's interesting about that to me is to me it's like the idea of I'm sure you've heard before like all pianos, take all pianos tuned to the key of C, or like tuned to write tune, like they're all in tune to one another. Yes, so the Christians believe that the character of God is what we are being attuned to, like those descriptors I just described love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control. Like all those things and even more.
Speaker 1:Don't forget about goodness.
Speaker 2:Goodness, yeah, yeah, yes. So all of those like those are the characteristics of God. And so to me, when we're talking about unity of the Christian faith, we're not talking about Christians being the representation of perfection, because Christians point to Christ and God as the representation of affection, of perfection and affection. So to me, like that is not a Slap in the face, like, oh, look at how ununified all these, like diverse groups of people, are, for two reasons one, many people claim a thing that they don't actually follow through on, and Christianity is one of the largest religion in the world. So many people can claim it and they don't follow through on it. But two, there's also the mental exercise that there are many people that are being faithful and merciful and kind and gentle and Abiding in the spirit and the character of nature of God, and they're not out there looking for proclaim. They're not the ones who were standing on stages and making sure everybody's looking at them, the underlying mantra of love and joy and peace that is Continuing to be aligned. It is the bride of Christ and she has always been unified and will always be unified. But she's unified because her, the one who leads her, the bridegroom, is continually drawing her into repentance, drawing her by her sacrifice. I mean, like the Christian church has tried, to many have tried to eliminate the Christian church and essentially, like martyrs, have basically sewn Seed and watered the seeds of the next generation. So that's my thought. Experiment is like is the church of Christ actually not unified?
Speaker 1:If you bring up CS Lewis, this is the. What is it? It's screw tape letters.
Speaker 2:I just listened to one of his things today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in screw tape letters it's basically like he paints this picture of the church, of what you see. Yeah, and it was like it's obviously the demon and he's like doing kind of the antithesis. Yeah it's like everything's opposite day, basically in the book. Yeah, basically it's all. The church isn't scary because it's like you see the building, you see the people. It's not. That's great. But if you think about the church of Jesus Christ throughout generations, in heaven just, and on earth just the whole enchilada of the Christian church, but which is the church of Jesus and if you think about it that way, it is supremely unified and crazy powerful.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, so it's like it can't be killed. Yeah, the entire mantra of Christ followers is to be as meek as a lamb and to say to those who are spitting on you and crucifying you, father, forgive them, for they don't know what they do. Christ is laying on us the love and the sacrificial heart that he had for us to begin with and he legitimately says like you to me. What I feel that he says is you can be wrathful with them when I stop being kind and gracious to you and like how do you kill that? Like, how do you kill a people who say I will give mercy and I won't require Sacrifice? Because that's what I feel like. Jesus came and said to the Pharisees when they're like how are you eating with these people? And she's a whore, prostitute, tax collector, worse than all of them, drug dealer, like all of these things. And he says go to the Pharisee or to the Sadducee. I feel like this may have been one time where a young Pharisee or Sadducee is actually like asking me how does this work? And he says go and learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. So we're in this little window before the judgment of God comes. And what does God want in this window before the second return? And it seems in Scripture to say I desire mercy, not sacrifice. So to me, you and I, who do feel that we've met and encountered a gracious, merciful God to us, we can sit across a counter from somebody that we don't agree with and just listen, and I don't have to. I Don't need to sacrifice from them, I don't need them to be different, I don't need them to change. Hey, I may change. I may learn something. I don't believe my faith in Christ will change, but my prejudices might change my the last interview we had with Tyler Zock he's I wrote a 30 page paper on Judgment and criticism of women not being in positions in the church and then he was like and then I helped pastor a multicultural church and in the Bicommunity the women that were in that church were very much leaders and I had issues to deal with. I can just only imagine like Tyler, like he was so open, but then just that uptight, oh no.
Speaker 1:And his whole thing flim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and now he's. I want to write a book refuting all the things that I wrote. And yeah, I don't know that, just Looking at me sideways, because I just cracked my knuckles in the mic.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:I don't know the idea that we can, because you and I have continued on this like, how can we sit here and and have a podcast that's going out to the masses and Us not be defending the gospel tooth and nail?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think One of the things I say a lot is just basically Take it. Take an idea or a religion, if you will which a lot of people don't do this, but for me it makes me believe more but just beat it with everything you have. I call it. Beat it with a thousand hammers, yes, like crush it to death. Okay, what is this? What is that? Basically, do the whole deconstruction thing and I deconstruct my faith, often not in the sense of I just throw it all out the window, but it's okay. How do I actually think about women in church and I'm it? Go down to the roots and then build it back up again. Maybe I come to the same conclusion, maybe I don't. But just the idea of doing that with one, with your faith, of just Beating the ideas with a thousand hammers and then two Coming back, because if it's true You're not gonna be able to beat it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if it's 100%, absolutely true, which is not just factually true, it's like this will produce good things, like true if there's all sorts of truth if you dig down, like, if you think about digging down like renovation, and you're digging down to the footer, like all the way down, if it's true, then there's a cornerstone. Yeah, that's like immovable, and that cornerstone is.
Speaker 1:Jesus.
Speaker 2:Nailed it. Yeah, it's Christ, it's the Jesus nailed it, and so if it is true, Then you're gonna find Christ, and if it's not, then you should be throwing it away.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's good that we looked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cuz maybe it's true, yeah, and maybe that house is rotted. You ever dealt with that?
Speaker 1:Oh no, I did so obviously flip houses. And Jared looked Houses and went in the crawl space and the whole thing's just goofed, but nothing, we didn't see coming.
Speaker 2:It's just funny. That is how the structures for our faith work too. Like it looks pretty on the outside and then like somebody swings something at it, like that crumbled, like you're like this sheet rocks paper. This is what I believe about gentleness, what I believe about gentleness and self-control. And then somebody Lays into you and then a demon comes out. In response to them, they're like oh, so you're a follower of Jesus.
Speaker 1:It's like great self-control. Buddy argued about self-control. I love this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love this self-control.
Speaker 1:I don't know Any. I know you had to leave here in a second, so any final thoughts for the masses, if you will.
Speaker 2:I think if our hearts and tension is to discover what is truth Founded in love, then my encouragement to anybody that I've walked with is just keep going, don't be afraid to dig. If you're afraid to share what you believe or hear the opinion of another, than that's a fragile faith and I don't want Anybody, myself included, to go into a world unprepared with a fragile faith. Now, that's different if it's if you're a child. I think children deserve protection and the cultivation of their faith. So I wouldn't like hand some like radical New Age Christian Christian-ese like book to a brand new believer or anything like that. There's differences and have wisdom. But if you're in pursuit of truth, my encouragement is just don't stop. Be logical, be rational, be willing to repent, be willing to accept when you're wrong. If you do that, I think we find the cornerstone that is Christ, like the look for that which is immovable and unchanging, and you'll find a person.
Speaker 1:Okay, alright, that was good, see y'all. Finally, my final thing, my final thought, if you will, would be that, could you basically took mine, not in a way of that's exactly. I was going to say it because you articulated it beautifully, but I was going to be like, don't be afraid to ask some questions brother Dude, we have the same one. That's fine, but no, I got I have a thought experiment. So I want to put this out, though. I want to put this out there. So one of the main purposes for me of this podcast that is like grown and that has continued to be shaped and molded as we've been building the thing. By the way, it's just the more we go, the more we realize what we need to tweak and what we need to do. One of the main reasons for like for the podcast for me would be that guy or that girl that middle, that middle believer. That's kind of one foot in, one foot out.
Speaker 2:That's kind of in the middle, not extreme to the one side, extreme together, just like.
Speaker 1:That middle believer that you could be swayed in either direction, kind of thing of like they're about to it's. Oh man, if I heard this one thing against my faith, I don't think I could defend it and I would just get blown over. Oh, I'm so far which a lot of people that leave the faith are the people that are the most in it. Yeah, like it's like they went full fledged, somewhat shallow, but like completely in it.
Speaker 2:Their whole identity was wrapped up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they just they went for it and then they left, which is a huge story. So, like for me just creating the space also to just be able to like wrestle with those kind of things, but also know that there are other people having those conversations and not just absolutely oh, we heard something crazy, like we're just going to throw out our faith. It's like almost for me. Every conversation we've had, whether or not it agrees with me, has built me up and made me stronger. So I don't know, that's just. That's for not naming any names, but whoever, whoever called us a heretic recently, recently- I don't know who that was. Not naming any names.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1:I'm an entertainer. Thanks for listening to the Across the Counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.
