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What happens when art, culture, and faith collide? The result is a healing and transformative fusion, explored deeply in our discussion with Logan Rice from Premier Arts Collective.
In this OTC episode we explore:
• Why personal theology and conviction are important , yet if unmoderated by mercy we become condemning judges.
• Verbal Processing vs. Prayer
• The nature of beauty found in imperfection
• How to navigate “gray” areas as believers
• The difference between being right and having righteousness
• The call of Matthew and Jesus’ desire of “mercy not sacrifice”
Connect with the Across the Counter Podcast:
Instagram: @encounteracross
Website: www.atcpodcast.com
Well, logan, you got some stuff to say about Premier Arts Collective and awesome stuff, so maybe you introduce yourself and we'll go from there, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my name is Logan Rice. I live in the up and coming and always flourishing land of easily, south Carolina. I'm probably one of the biggest advocates of easily you'll find around. I am married. I've been married for seven years and have two daughters. Sayla is three, piper is one and I love being a father of girls. God gives us a boy. I'm sure I would love to be a father of boys and girls, but right now I'm loving loving the girl. Dad life, yeah, and I've been. I've been serving at an organization called Premier Arts Collective since August of 2021. So coming up on on two years and gosh how that even came about is totally divine. The story is, is all God, I mean, it's just all providence of how that even came about. So I've been. I've been there for, you know, roughly the past two years, and our mission is to use the arts as a vehicle of healing and hope and kind of that's. That's our purpose. If you visit our website, it's our mission, but in all reality, it's our purpose and there's a lot of submissions underneath that purpose of how healing and hope gets brought to life. Whether it be through our more traditional programs, we work with performance artists, so maybe it's somebody like Jared Emerson performing in Mexico with Christine DeClario, and it could look like a mural on one of the more iconic buildings here in Greenville that serves as a beacon for serving those experiencing homelessness. So that was kind of a lot of 30,000 foot view information, but that's a nutshell who I am and what I'm currently doing.
Speaker 3:For this off the cuff episode. You've got Grant Lockridge across the counter and then Jared my name is Jared Taft, we're both here and we just are having Logan on for one. I guess technically, logan's one of the most famous people that we've had on the podcast now, because you were also just in a music video with Sean Chris I have to prop that up One of my good friends, logan's a good buddy of ours, and that's just something that tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Well, when I still think I've been listening to y'all's podcast. Love what you're doing with the podcast. Love the mission man. Some of the folks you all have had on here have been incredible Derek, I believe with circuit riders. It's just fascinating to see the conversations that y'all are having and it's been really encouraging to listen to. So I don't think I'm going to claim the most famous guest title.
Speaker 3:I know you would never do that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it was. So. Shama Marama is a comedian Christian comedian here, and he's been in Greenville for a number of years and he's done a number of wacky things with in kind of Christian satire comedy. His Instagram and I guess, if he has a TikTok which I'm sure he does just all kinds of crazy videos, loose Canon speaker type of videos and just really kind of like what the Babylon B was before they got super political, is kind of where he's at, just kind of like taking healthy, healthy digs at the church's pop culture environment while also maintaining a level of respect and integrity. I will add that. So Shama is a friend of mine, my brother-in-law, andrew Simmons. He's worked with him in the past on a couple of things. Shama and Andrew Redid did like a veggie tails remix a few years ago and that really kind of blew up, and so maybe that was the video that kind of took Shama a little more mainstream. He's been doing awesome stuff. I mean he's hanging out the Dove Awards and he's kind of emceed some festivals in the past. Anyways, him and John got hooked up somehow. I think John came down and did a show in Greenville and Shama and his buddy Robert are actually really really good video producers. So John basically asked Shama if he wanted to produce the music video for this song that John and Steve Fee were working on, called Every Christian Music Video, and they needed a stereotypical Christian worship band to go play. And so at the time I had kind of that slicked back, hair faded in and I know how to play four chords on a guitar. My skinny jeans were ready. My skinny jeans were ready. Yeah, I mean, we all wore you know it's funny, we all wore literally the same thing black shirt, black skinnies and a denim jacket, and me and the drummer and my brother-in-law, andrew, all had the same haircut. Steve was kind of the only one who stood out with his long hair. So you know, it was really fun. John's a funny dude, you know he's really. He's somebody who is maybe pushing the boundaries a little bit on, like where Christians can be in a certain space. I don't know if you'll edit things out after, so keep this in or not, but well, now we don't talk about anything good. Well, he was just. I don't know if you know who Trevor Wallace is, grant, but he was actually on Trevor Wallace's podcast a few weeks ago, which I mean I can't endorse listening to that to anybody, but it was. It was fascinating how John navigated that space and this is honestly a little bit of what what I'd be interested in talking about, kind of a little bit on my heart, is. He navigated a space. I would say very tactfully, that others might look and say, how dare you go on Trevor's podcast? I mean, it is, he's a funny dude, but it is not edifying in any way, shape or form. And even the podcast it was. It was fascinating how the hosts were just very unnecessarily explicit and John just managed that really well and was able to have actually a few instances where there were a couple of like kind of serious conversations about Christian and how John navigates that space. So, anyways, I found that interesting. Where you have you know you're always going to have somebody that says, oh my gosh, like how dare you go into that environment or how dare you have that conversation, and it's a little bit like what you guys are doing, having conversations with people that you maybe internally know you disagree with on some points, but you want to hear those conversations and have them. So, anyways, feel free to edit that out if you want. I don't want anybody to go to that podcast.
Speaker 3:Listen to this podcast.
Speaker 1:We're editing out the first. We're editing out the first eight months, that's a great intro.
Speaker 3:We got some coffee mugs at the table grants at his house because he's got the COVIDs and hopefully he's feeling all right, so pull up a chair. Why don't we roll the intro here? On the across the counter podcast, we create space for real people to have honest conversations. The fourth week of every month, we're going to bring listeners and across the counter OTC, otherwise known as off the cuff, which will be an honest, unplanned conversation between Grant and I, unpacking where we are in the moment and what we're learning. Our hope is that we can all grow together as we listen to one another.
Speaker 1:And without further ado, let's jump in to the OTC on the ATC.
Speaker 3:Sweet. Well, logan kind of reached out. He's been a good friend of ours for a while. While there are many, there are many things in his life that are super cool and going on, he had some things on his heart and we wanted to have off the cuff episodes where we have our friends around the table and it's just enjoyable conversation. So that's kind of the premise of what we're doing here. So, grant anything else on your mind or you want to just jump right in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I'd like to add that Logan's been around for years and years and years at least around me, and I believe Jared too, and we started by we, I mean him and them started this little breakfast thing that I've been going to for a hot minute, so that's been super impactful for me. And we also play in a little band, that's. You know, we're the guys you send if nobody else will play, we're those guys, so we're the other guys that's the mission, yeah, that's the hope.
Speaker 2:is like hey, is the? Is the space you're walking into? Has it not been refurnished or re-updated from the sound standpoint since 1982? Send us and play in that room. Yeah no gosh. I've only known Jared. I've lived six years, five years and I feel like I've lived 30 years. We've lived a lot of life together and you say I'm hard on a relationship. We have. You know, when you think about life in terms of stages, you know you have high school, college, single married kids where you live, ministry, I think we've we've lived a lot of those stages together, which has been, which has been really cool. And then, yeah, got got through a mutual friend, andrew Harget, met Grant and yeah, we're doing a whole lot of whole lot of life together all around here in Greenville, which is a lot of fun. So excited to be here and talk about whatever you want to talk about.
Speaker 3:You reached out to me and said man, there's just things on my heart that I feel like I need a space to capture. And my response was great I need to record a podcast.
Speaker 1:What you do on.
Speaker 3:Tuesday at 7am. Actually I said Friday and then moved it to a very early morning and because we're good friends.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, dude, 7am is late compared to yeah.
Speaker 3:So I would like to start there. Just most of the off the cuffs and, honestly, a lot of the podcasters, just we open the conversation and then just see where it goes, and our mission and our private mission statement is to have a good time. So grant not kind of abide by that Sweet yeah, if it's not a good time, we're not really seeing it, which we have done a few times. Some of that's our fault, but what when you called, like you kind of mentioned a few things already, but what was like what was most prominently on your mind or heart, that you were like man, I just need to get into a space and capture some, some things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think one is. I can't. Maybe it was the all first episode. Jared got dubbed the title. He has the gift of gab, and I do think Jared is probably in first place in that. I think I'm a pretty close second. Are you know? How dare you? Yeah, you win. You definitely got it. I'm close second. There have been many a times where my wife is who's listening on a conversation, whether in person, over the phone, has been like golly, how does that conversation even happen? And so really I also verbally process a lot of things which have resulted in hours upon hours of phone calls with Jared, and I've just noticed, kind of in work and in life, that I will oftentimes drag people through my own mud of verbal processing. So the original idea was and I'm still trying to do this is audio journaling, and so, rather than because my, my handwriting can't keep up with my brain and so I'm like gosh, how can I process things without having to drag people through that? So I started audio journaling and kind of mentioned that to you. I was like man, I just. And then I kind of mentioned like I think I'm just going to start a podcast and never release anything and it'll be and I was talking with a friend about it. Like I think I'm going to do it and like, just pretend that there's a guest, god will be the guest. Like it'll be me and God talking. You might could call it prayer, yeah, you like describing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was like what is it? I was like you've been talking it. I think that's pretty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so some would call it prayer. It's a full circle, yeah, or if you're a millennial we call it a podcast. A millennial bro would be like you're on podcast with God. So, anyhow, that was kind of because, yeah, there's a lot of things that I want to process. Jared kind of in that conversation because Jared is the person I'm most verbally processed with was like hey, you know, do you want to do this off the cuff episodes? That was kind of the genesis of it. Gosh to, really, I guess. I guess the premise of that was Just as Christians navigating spaces where you know you will have to hold your personal convictions, theology, eschatology, whatever ology you want to put at the end of that, have to hold that pretty close and have an assurance in it. But while also stepping out and navigating that space, I believe it's, in essence, a little bit of the heart that you all have with this podcast. If I'm understanding kind of the intro correctly, there's an intentionality in the diversity of folks that are across your table, in things maybe as nuanced as tiny little bits of theology that I think we as Christians oftentimes are privileged to even think about and discuss. If somebody is sitting around a table having a conversation about Pato and Credo baptism, there's just a part of me that's becoming more okay with that conversation, just being happy that conversation is happening because, more than likely, if that's the conversation of debate, then there's a lot of other spiritual foundations that are probably somewhat secure. So, whether it's as nuanced as the tiny theological point or whether it's as big as like hey, we know we have some serious differences, whether it be in or out of the faith. And how do we navigate those in a way that gives God glory first and foremost, but then, secondly, how do we navigate them, knowing that you're probably going to get hit on both sides? It's really easy to play safe and beyond gosh, it sucks that these even have to be prefaced as like don't think of this as what I'm about to say, but it's really easy to hang out on the left or the right side, whether that left or right side be the traditional conservatism versus liberalism, or whether the right side is the church and the left side is the world, or, if you want to flip that, just for the sake of not affiliating the church with conservatism and the world of liberalism, but knowing that there is a gray area, like I believe the Bible is black and white, I believe theology can be black and white, and I believe it's a little bit of our responsibility as Christians to walk out your own faith with fear and trembling. Make that as black and white as possible for your own assurances and for your own conversation and for your own relationship with the Father. Theology is helpful and theology leads to doxology, and so actually, the more that you dive into who God is and the more you have those things, I believe, the more prone you are to worship God. So hold those things close and keep those quote unquote black and white. But somebody has to be living in the gray. I believe walking out that faith looks really, really gray and that's, I think, where the challenge is, for I mean, just look at all of the Christian things that may be good, may be bad, I don't know, but you look at something like this podcast, the Chosen. The he Gifts Us ad campaigns an arts organization that believes that healing and hope can be found in Christ through the vehicle of using the arts. I mean, just, the Chosen is such an easy one to pick on because it's so big, like people rail on the Chosen because I don't know if Jesus said this. Are we sure Matthew was like this? Oh, they didn't lean into this enough, and it's like maybe you're right, but somebody is willing to live in the gray and there is a, in my opinion, for the most part theologically sound television show that is reaching the masses that I mean the Joe Rogan podcast was talking about it and so not that being talked about on the Joe Rogan podcast is a measure of success. But there's something to Dallas Jenkins and all of his people saying we're willing to step out, produce a really well produced television show and reach people, and you're going to get it from both sides. One side is going to say you know, don't you know this Jesus guy isn't real and this is just a bunch of baloney and you're just your brainwashing people and you're doing it in the name of good media. And then there's the other side that says yeah, I mean this, this wasn't right. And do you know that this guy is actually Catholic? And bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. And it's like, golly, people, give me, not just so. I think that's kind of the tension that I'm feeling and you know how to navigate that. I don't. I don't know, but I think it's worth having these conversations. I think across the counter is is it's intentionally gray? Y'all are intentionally in the gray and I know you both personally. I know that you guys both have really rooted foundations in Christ and y'all live out that faith. But there need, you know, there needs to be a space where you have some of those conversations where you say, hey, even if I don't agree with you, at least I've heard you and I know and the conversation, y'all are having these conversations so that you can call them back up two weeks later and say, hey, I have a rebuttal for everything you said. And you just blast them. You know you're just having the conversation and saying, man, this is great. And the last thing I'll say kind of because I feel like I'm monologuing here is there's a song the Gable Price and Friends wrote with Christine DeMarco called you Are my Country, and the opening line is maybe we get to heaven and realize we're both wrong. So at the end of the day, you know we I could be, we could be super right, we could be wrong. Just because I'm right doesn't mean the other person's wrong. We could both be wrong. And Jesus just kindly, lovingly says well done, good and faithful servant. And then maybe in heaven he just lovingly says, hey, let's go on a walk. And just explains all the things that we've been debating and talking about for our entire life here and we go oh wow, never, never, thought it was that.
Speaker 1:Yeah with the chosen. For me it's like okay, what do I normally watch on television, and is that better than the stuff that I watch on television? That's my question. It's like right, would I rather be watching Game of Thrones or the chosen? And it's like probably the chosen because, even if it's wrong, it's still getting me to think about Jesus and getting me to go through the Gospels and like right, saying, like is this how it actually was? Because I missed that part. I missed the whole part about Nicodemus and like his whole arc, like that was it? That's first season, I believe that's. That's huge to me. Like I had to go back and reread like the whole Nicodemus thing and I was like man, that is a lot more quote unquote gray area, like it's. It was Nicodemus. Did he ever, you know, come back or did he just leave?
Speaker 2:And the fact that John 316 was a conversation that blue I mean. You grew up hearing John 316, thousands upon thousands of times and I was just like, oh, this wasn't Jesus preaching to the masses. This is Jesus having an intimate conversation with Nicodemus and watching it just brings it a new, a new light. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. John Piper, either in a sermon or an ass pastor, john, or one of the thousands of audio clips he has out there. I might butcher this, but the heart of it is accurate. You know he's like hey, you go in and you preach the gospel to this remote village where they sacrifice their children, like and they come to know Christ. What does sanctification look like? Not sacrificing children? Maybe they, you know, maybe they still, you know, are out of whack and have a lot of you know, theological, whatever, but like, at the end of the day, sanctification to that tribe looks like not killing each other. So in, I think, in the same way, somebody who's a methamphetamine addict. Sanctification looks like going to the gas station and buying a pack of Malbrew or Reds. You know, like, like that's sanctification. And I think there's a, there's a, there's a. That doesn't mean that the goal is to say, hey, quit meth and smoke cigarettes, but that's, that's a sanctification process. I think, in the same way, to your point, somebody's like, hey, turning off Game of Thrones and turning on the chosen, that might look like sanctification, that might be what gets them in the door. And then all of the tiny little nuance, things that are right or wrong or could be right or wrong about the chosen. Like again, if that person who doesn't know Christ comes to Christ through seeing that show, I would rejoice if two years from now, three years from now, they're talking about the fine points of differences between you know, all the different Protestant denominations and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Like that's a win.
Speaker 2:That's sanctification. So you know we can, we can be okay with that.
Speaker 3:Maybe as a framework. I've been thinking about this a lot recently and it's the idea of it's even related to to what you open with, with the concept of processing out loud. I think we have such a fear of being wrong and such a fear of failure, especially as it relates to God and religion, that we're unwilling to have any brushstroke out of place and so like, as you were talking like, one thought that hit me was does art have to be perfect for it to have beauty? Like the answer that is no. There's a lot of intention behind it. There's a lot of like the ugliest painting from your two year old, maybe the most valuable thing. Like I've got this thing up here where, like it's just my kids footprints and like scribbles and it's like a little poem called Walk a Little Slower, daddy. It makes me cry so I'm not gonna read it. But like if we view, if we view beauty and and like discovery of goodness as things that point to the source of goodness, then we're not talking about right, like being holy, right or wrong. We're talking about being archaeologists, uncovering the mystery of the love of God. Like we're talking about participating in discovery, and so then, like I wrote down what you said, like, how do we navigate spaces that are intentionally in the gray area? Well, what if the gray area is the process between going from darkness to light? Like, what if? What if life is the process of illumination? Like there's some amount of gray in terms of illumination, but in order to accept that, I would have to accept that that the truth is not gray. And the truth is not it does not have variation or change, but I have variation and change, like I am the most. If I just accept a partial truth that I'm very likely always in need of learning at any table, I'm at that. Like at every table I'm at something about what I think is wrong and could be a point of growth and learning, whether that's with my three-year-old or whether it's with a table of CEOs. Like then, I'm open to stepping from darkness to light. Like I'm open. I don't know if you guys ever thought about this, but like the process of learning is the continual acceptance that you were in a state of failure, like you were previously failing to understand a thing, and then you learned and then. So what? I like? I think the motivation of like fear and tension is we. We hear Jesus say all the promises of all the promises of God are yes in Christ Jesus, and there's no condemnation in the name of Christ. But then we live as though there's going to be condemnation because of our failure. Yeah, like we constantly hold this tension, as though, like what we do has like a net worth on God's majestic art piece, versus like I'm a tool in his hand and like he's not, like his majesty isn't gonna be messed up by my brokenness, like as a matter of fact, he's gonna be more glorified because in my weakness he's made strong. Like I feel like there's just been this freedom in me. It's like you know what, man, I'm probably wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like this posture and I know, like, personally, I am at my worst when I am right and no, I'm right, like that is when I'm just at my worst in conversation. And I know that and I still, you know it's the whole Paul, like why do you do what I hate? Like I'm just like gosh, but it's this pride that I'm like in the moment have no desire to relinquish. So that, yeah, that constant state of there's a lot to unpack and what you said. There's an art therapist that we work with at Premier Arts Collective. Her name is Lisa, she's up in Minnesota, her story in testimony is awesome and I'm honored to call her friend. She kind of had this idea of this, you know, art therapy and studio and how to bring it to life, and this is it. And she was just really wrestling with it. And then she's like the most important question I've ever asked in my entire life was what if I'm wrong? And she's like I asked, I kind of ask out what if I'm wrong? And then he gave her this crystal clear vision to put it on a bus, and so she took a bus and transformed it to an art, a beautiful art therapy studio that she now can take to people and and use as a ministry. But but anytime I've had a conversation with her she's like one of the most important questions you can ask is what if I'm wrong? And I think that's true for something as simple as an idea that you're kind of chewing on to something as complex, as you know key points of theology because at best I don't know, at best or worst, but if you're right, asking the question is going to cause you to dive deeper into that topic and you have more of an assurance, rather than saying, well, I know I'm right. And the reason I'm right is because 20 years ago, when I was growing up and I was eight, this is what I heard and I just clung to it. You know, there's a healthy balance between asking what if I'm wrong? And deconstruction for sure, but I think there is a healthy level of questioning if that assurance in Christ is rooted and you can start unpacking those things. And I think to you know, going back to what you first said about art Jared, this is something I waffle on back and forth in my own head, but I also think we're. I think there are people who are called to be in the gray and there's people who are called to be in them when, the more black and white, if you will, and I'm putting that in air quotes. I'm gonna use names here and in no means or form do I have a relationship with these people, so it's always dangerous. But like Chris Tomlin, you're never gonna find Chris Tomlin playing at the club in the 11 pm to 2 am slot. Like you're just never gonna see him there. They don't want his music they don't want his music there and he doesn't want people and he's going to be there and so you know, as a, as a pessimistically, you go. Well, that's where he should be. He should be at the club at 11 am. I mean 11 pm to 2 am. Chris Tomlin will get ripped by. You know, like and so, and I think, and Chris Tomlin has structured his music in a way that he knows like, this is, these are the people that I, that I serve, these people I minister to switch foot has gone on death metal tours and open for Nickelback and the Foo Fighters and they are switch foot could play the club from 11 am to from 11 pm to 2 am, like they could be that slot, because how they have structured their music is we want to play songs of hope that point people to hope, but we want to be a little less on the nose about it so that we can go and play more to the masses. So, again, both of those points are open to critique, right, will G's John Foreman? How are people going to know that Jesus is the hope you're singing about unless you tell them and pop up, pop, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up up? Well, geez, chris Tomlin, how are the people you know who are walking away and are in the club life, going to know? Blah, blah, blah, blah. I think that's where the beauty of the church comes in, where not everybody is the hand, is the foot, is the knee, is the mouth, is the ear. And so if we can embrace the calling that we feel like God has put on us all, the while holding in another hand a very open posture of and there are going to be other Christians who are in spaces that I would either A never go in or B don't feel called to go in, who are going to navigate that space and have to navigate it differently in order to even operate in that space, and I'm going to believe the best in that person, that they're not compromising on things. I think that's something that is challenging. It is easier to compromise on things, at least openly. I think everybody. It's easy to compromise on anything. Sometimes they just live in the shadows, but I think that's important. Where is art perfect? No, and actually the very fact that it's not perfect is what makes it beautiful. But you have all kinds of art. You have all types of music, genres. I mean, what is right? Art Is abstract art more right than realism? Are sculptures more wrong than canvases? Like it would be asinine, like it just wouldn't even make any sense to say, oh well, sculptures are better than canvases. It's like, maybe in the right environment, if you're trying to produce a piece of art for an outdoor park, like yeah, sculpture's probably going to be better, because when rain comes, the sculpture will withstand the canvas Will withstand the elements more than the canvas will.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like you, I even think about down to like symmetry, like if you've ever seen a face that's drawn with perfect symmetry. It's weird man. It's like an alien and you don't know why. And then, if you like this, even transitions. But if you've ever heard of like the uncanny valley where you're like taking like gaming or video imagery, and then you make it like too perfectly symmetrical, but then it's not real. It makes you feel like icky and weird, like it doesn't fit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like those 8K cameras that the NFL is using now. Where it's like it's real life, but it's almost so vivid that it doesn't feel real.
Speaker 3:Right right, there's something about, there's something. There's something that we're drawn to in imperfection.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like, and I don't even know, I'm even right now, for some reason, like burnt toast is in my head, like, to some degree even like a little bit of burn on the chargrilled burger or things like it. There's some type of like that may not relate whatsoever, I don't know why it's in my head. Maybe I'm just hungry but like, just want toast, just want some toast, but there's something about imperfection. This is one thing. I wanna hear what you think about this. Like Logan you said earlier, I'm at my worst when I am right and I know I'm right and that's happened to me too. And the reason if I give myself grace the times that I've said that and I've been in a sincere heart it's not because I'm trying to lean in from a prayerful heart. It's been because I feel like God has revealed something to me. Yeah, and I know that he showed me a right way. But when I digest that and transition and say that is right too, I changed that to. I am right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like this. Shift takes place Because now, from a state of brokenness, I'm saying I have the wholeness of right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Instead of saying he is right, and like letting my imperfections point to, and like asking questions to discover more with others about that thing, like I put myself on that throne in my heart.
Speaker 2:And now your ego's on the line. Yeah, and now it's personal.
Speaker 3:Because now I said not only is that right, I'm right and I, and if I don't hold this line, then I actually my identity itself is on the line, if you will, which is, I guess, maybe a transition there. I wanna hear y'all's thoughts Like. That feels like a lot of the position of our culture Now, like your identity is attached to what your truth, in a way that you don't have it connected to community any longer, or culture. It's like, whatever your choice is, you're all in on you being right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Everything's personal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something that I've talked about a little bit with one of my buddies recently is, you find it a lot and in us, but also new Christians, almost to a more prominent degree of when they've been redeemed from a lot of stuff and they have they feel completely free and redeemed. A lot of the times they'll go in and just start bashing people with truth and they'll start being like hey, you know what, I know what's right and you don't, and here's my thoughts and here's what's right. And if you don't follow this, you're not a good Christian or something like that, which happens a lot to new believers, which is why I don't think they should be in leadership. The nuance is there, but it's kind of that idea that even if you have the truth, even if you are right in your theology or you are correct in your thinking because I do believe there's absolute truth, so I believe that there is a right, so which is a conversation itself Can you believe that something is right. I believe that there's right and wrong and external truth sort of thing, so you can have the truth, you can have what's right, you know the truth, but you can deliver it in the wrong way, which makes you wrong. So like if I have, jesus is the Son of God. I believe it's the truth. If you go up to somebody and say, hey, jesus is the Son of God, there's so many wrong ways to deliver that message. So you can be wrong in the sense of like if you think you're better than that person because you were given a free gift from Christ, like that's already in the wrong way. So you are wrong. Like Jesus is the Son of God. But you're wrong and also turning it internally and saying, hey, I'm wrong because my heart's not completely in the right spot.
Speaker 2:Right in in reform circles they call it the cage stage. The cage stage what it? I'm not even, I'm not even joking the cage stage where you were, you, which is so ironic if you and I'm, you know full Transparency, I, I'm pretty reformed, I would say in my theology. Maybe I'm wrong, but, but you know, it's. That's what I hold to be true, and it's actually ironic and a little bit sad that this is the case. But when, when people come to you know the idea of reformed theology and it's actually God's sovereign election of of who are his children, and that there's actually nothing we can do to not only earn salvation but even Even warrant the the need of a savior, it takes the Holy Spirit revealing to us that we were dead in our sins, and so you, you know, you kind of come to that and you go. I mean it. If you didn't grow up in it, it'll kind of redefine how you look at Christianity and I would argue a beautiful way. But reformed theology and and I put it as an air quote Calvinists get a really bad rap, because then they take that and then they just Blast people with it. And it's called the cage stage, where it's, a stage where you, just, you, just you probably need to put them in a cage and keep them in there and let them work that out before they got a kind of God minister. Well, the irony of it is reformed theology is the most Self-reducing posture you can take in salvation. It's like, hey, you can't do anything. It takes the Holy Spirit and so the irony is you're going out and proclaiming you're totally depraved, we can't do anything. And it's like, well, you, you are in that as well, and so, yeah, it's, it's. It's a fascinating kind of phenomenon. Yeah, I love just to think and analogies. So maybe this is. I don't know if this is original to me or not, but I feel like I thought of it. It's. It's taking somebody by their hair by their hair or their head, depending on if you have hair or not and Just plunging them underwater and calling it baptism. It's like the act is the same like baptism, but you know, believers, baptism, you take them, you plug their nose, you, you plunge them underwater and you take them out. That can be one of the most beautiful things in the world If I were just to grab somebody off the street, proclaim the gospel to them and then shove their head in a river, like I'd probably be arrested. And so there is this like I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, and it's like, and you come with them and actually in your rightness, right, like, there are a lot of things that we would say this is, this is right, this is true, I agree with you, there's absolute truth. So in your rightness, you can be wrong and you can, and you can be grabbing somebody by the hair and dunking them in the river and calling it baptism versus lead versus leading them, and, and what's fascinating is, when you put yourself on the throne, you are, you are putting yourself in a state of rejection, which is why I think that that's where I think pride and ego comes in, because if you reject what I'm telling you and I'm on that throne you're rejecting me, and Logan Rice has a deep fear of rejection and a deep fear of man, and so that's where the pride comes in, and now I'm gripping onto this as hard as I can. Versus, time and time again in the Bible, they say and I'm rejecting you, they've rejected me.
Speaker 3:Well, especially if you've put yourself on the throne of right, but if a piece of what you're saying is wrong, right. Or you let's let's even take it out of the writer, wrong context, like if you don't have the full picture yet, but you've said this this paradigm is the only way. Like that's what you're doing when you put yourself on that throne because you've taken it personally. If you're wrong, you're damned. Like right you. You can't Take a step back. Like you've said, this is as far as I go. All of you need to get to where I am. Yeah and so like. Once you personally put your heart in that place, I think you begin the hardening process, like until the hardening process until you break. Because like the day that you discover that there's a chink in your armor, Like your whole soul unravels right you don't, you don't get to, and then it unravels because you see the way you've hurt all these people who justifiably Said screw you yeah, because you're not being compassionate, or you're not. I just think, like in all of what we're talking about, I think about when that Pharisee came to Jesus at the party, with all of the slaggards and the the scum of society essentially and he's like how can you, how can you have dinner with this rabble?
Speaker 2:right and.
Speaker 3:I just feel like Jesus. It was just such a fascinating, compassionate response he said. I may be misquoting all you know the different period times, but at least at some point Jesus said to one of the Pharisees Go and learn what this means. Yeah, I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Like that's such a Interesting context. Like he doesn't, he doesn't attack him, yeah, he doesn't. He doesn't say like he's the only one that's right right and he doesn't say I'm on this throne, let me tell you something. Yeah, he says, go and learn what this means. And so like earlier, whenever, whenever you were right, like. We often use that verse like how will people believe if they don't hear? We transliterate that to mean how will people know the truth unless I tell them? Yeah those are two very different sentences, right? So, like I wrote, how will? How will people taste and see that he is good if we don't serve them? Yeah, like that feels like such a different if participation, if participation in rightness is a partaking of the one who is true. Yeah, not a what would be, not a, not an academic position of what is true, like there's such a difference in in like, if truth is a relationship With one who is true, and there's a transformation that takes place and he says I cover all of your debts. Yeah in the process. Then I'm free to just learn and draw closer and fall deeper in love, and then anybody else is welcome as well. Yeah, so walk through that process and there's.
Speaker 2:You know there are so many nuances to this, because even as we're talking, I'm almost rebutting myself as we talk and I think that's, that's fine. Yeah, two things come to my mind. One is we're, we're called to be Christians in every element of our life, 100% Christ in our workplace, christ in our church, christ in our family, christ on the airplane. I Also think, when I look at the life of Christ, he knew, you know, or maybe, to use Paul, like there's also time to be that the time for To the Jew I was the Jew to the Gentiles, the Gentile. And so you know all of the things we're talking about. They may not fall away, but it comes into a completely different perspective of we're talking about the local church, like the local church that says this, like it is, it is Not only important I would say crucial for the local church, like a church building or a gathering of people, to say this is what we believe about. You know, everything from as broad as the Apostles Creed to as narrow as Means of salvation. Like tiny things about life because in that local church You're called to unity and that is where, you know, again, in one side is like gosh, why do we have 5,000 churches and you know a thousand square feet? Well, because you know, one of the reasons is why is because we as Christians are called to different things and actually, if there is disunity in the church, go find unity somewhere else, no matter how quote-unquote, right or wrong you may be in that. So so in the local church gathering, this conversation is a lot different. In in the breakfast circles, right, they've waking up at 6 am, going to get in coffee, even that you're probably going to back away a little bit Because you have a plurality of people in that group Of all different backgrounds, of all different Stages of life that you can, that you can say, hey, here's what we believe in, all that and but. But you probably hold that a little more loose because you're not going to enact the level of Church discipline or there are no, you know the elders of that. There are no elders at that breakfast table, right, and so there's, so there's different Nuances that that come into play. So I want to address that because this this kind of like hey, let's, let's serve and not, and, and and be very open and what's right or wrong, like that I would argue that falls away in the local church gathering and that's a good thing, like it's not barefoot in kumbaya, like everything's gonna be right and.
Speaker 3:I guess this is the way I process that. Imagine if you had like a global family that all were interconnected but they each needed to live in different cultures because they're all over the world. Each culture has different languages, preferences, taste patterns, like even down if you've been to other countries, like some people or some cultures are way more timely and some are way less timely and like hours of the work they are different, like if you live in certain parts of the Latin world, like there's an, there's a, like a nap during the day.
Speaker 1:Like there's a certain patterns.
Speaker 3:So I think even of like at a local level. If I, if I think of the local body of Christ in a familial manner, I think it's important For that local family to say this is how it is for us to act, like this. I guess this is what we believe, but then that also has a reflection in the culture that they're in. Like this is what it is Like this is what it looks like for this family and I can even bring that into my own home, like I have to set a standard in my home for my sons and my daughter and say regardless of what everybody else is doing. Yeah, like my wife and I had a conversation about this last night. I mean not not to get super like, weird or political, but Everything from homeschooling to vaccines, to like entertainment and media and like at every single level. If we make a choice based on our convictions, someone on either side of that choice is going to disdain us, right, like it, like every single one, it doesn't matter. And out of the church and out of the church and honestly, sometimes more vehemently, in the church Because they have self righteous. We as Christians often have self righteous power To say how dare you not be as right as I am? And so like I'm the same culprit. But we were talking about. It feels like that red pill, blue pill, moment Of like. Okay, I'm essentially saying I'm gonna sign a blank check to the Lord with, like the way I govern my house, the way we educate our children, the medical, the food, the finance, the trust, like every quote Institutional level in my home. I'm just saying to the Lord, or we, my husband, as a husband and wife, we're saying we'll just follow our convictions, like wherever they leave.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And that is terrifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because it means like what if I mean this is a weird thing. But like what if there's a conviction that, like actually I don't? Like I don't necessarily know that we want to get 72 vaccines in my, in my two year old by the time he's two? Like I, maybe I want some degree of them, but maybe I don't want all of them. Yeah, or like maybe we want to like homeschool for a period of time and like now we're the weird, weird, oaky homeschool family. So I don't know this.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, something that I don't want to lose is that scripture you quoted. I had no clue. This is Jesus calling Matthew, which is kind of cool. It's Matthew 9, 9 through 13 is what you quoted, and shoot, I'll just read the whole thing, because this seems good Matthew 9, 9 through 13. So as Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth and he said to him follow me. And he rose and followed him. And as Jesus reclined at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples what is your teacher? Eat with tax collectors and sinners. But when he heard it, he said those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick, go and learn what this means. I desire mercy and not sacrifice, for I came not to call the righteous but sinners. That's humbling.
Speaker 2:So that's challenging to do in the nuclear family. As for me, in my house, these are our convictions, this is what we feel called to do. I mean, that's tough. You now take that to a larger organizational level, whether that's a church, a peri-church organization, a business that serves chicken in the name of you know and in for God's glory, like you take all those things and you say we're doing this in God's name. Well, first off, that's a bold thing to say like that's a big statement, because now you have a level of accountability in the work that you're doing, which is a good thing, but a bold thing nonetheless. But then, you know, if you were to go to premier arch collective's website, you might see an organization and go oh wow, I didn't know they're affiliated with them. You would go to anybody else's website and say, oh well, they're in this place doing this with this organization. What's up with that? We'd probably fall under some scrutiny and I would see where they were coming from, which is in the same way. I identify a little bit with the Pharisees. Hey Jesus, what are you doing? Don't you know that these people are bad? Don't you want to surround yourself with good people and good Christians that are already following you. I see where they're coming from. It would be hypocritical to say how dare those Pharisees and I did the same thing every day, but at the same breath. Again, I think that's where, looking at Jesus' life, you talk about somebody who knew who he was. I mean, he had a direct line to the father. He has God himself, fully God, fully man. So when he walks into these places, there's an assurance that he has. I mean, what the Pharisees are saying is hey, jesus, are you sure you're not compromising on who you are by being around these people? And his answer is no, and actually, by not compromising on who I am, they're gonna see righteousness, they're gonna see Jesus in flesh and in the supernatural. And so when I think about I love podcasts, I love conversations, I love sermons, I love all this stuff. Walking this out is the hard part. Walking it out is where it gets difficult, because I don't know about you, but I'm not Jesus. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I also have a fleshy body that wants to just do everything. But what that Holy Spirit is telling me, and so I would contend that maybe some of the warnings that Jesus was getting from the Pharisees, maybe some of the warnings that pastors are getting as they entrench themselves in culture. Some of those warnings may be rooted in a good heart which is hey, I don't know about you, but I know me and I would have a hard time pastoring in New York City. I would have a hard time doing ministry in this environment. And then what actually happens, unfortunately, is sometimes you're not projecting your own insecurities on that other person and saying, because I couldn't pastor in a city where because I couldn't plant a church in the middle of Las Vegas. You shouldn't either, and that's just not fully true. There may be some goodness in. Maybe the Pharisee this might be reading into it, but maybe the Pharisees are saying hey, jesus, these are bad people. If you hang around them, you might fall into some of those things. Right, and that was projected in. How dare you sit with them? Maybe they're just hypocritical jerks. So when we walk this path, talking about as great living it out is where the challenge begins, because you do have to hold those things close, and I think that is maybe one of the primary challenges that the church, at least Western church, is facing is we know all these things, we talk about all these things. Somebody walks that out and they get crucified, and so they go. Well, I don't feel like doing that. So we'll just, you know, we'll talk about how this is right, this is wrong, this shouldn't be happening, we shouldn't be doing this. But actually walking that path, you make one slip up and congratulations, you're done. Or you make one statement that doesn't sound right, and I mean I could name you five Christian music artists right now that I would contend love the Lord. They make a slip up or two and they're done, done, and these are like solid people and they're not getting drugged through the mud. And so that's where I think the challenge is for organizations of people alike is walking that, having those convictions and then, but also being assured in who you are, in Christ, enough that when you face those things, you're saying, hey, let's go grab a cup of coffee and I'll tell you how. Not only do I see where you're coming from, I agree with you and here's how we're trying to combat that. In a way, that's that's loving. Because you know, I don't know the, I don't know the chronological order on this. Off the top of my head, I think the woman at the well is before and then the calling of Matthew is after. Who knows? But let's say Jesus takes the Pharisees up on their advice and says you know what? You're right, I got to get out of here. Um, who's who is meeting the woman at the well in the hottest part of the day, when the, when she, a whore, has to come and get water, because not the women get like who's there?
Speaker 3:in the country was in the country of sinners.
Speaker 2:And it was when you talk about upside down kingdom and I'm going to stop getting off the soapbox here. Jesus sits there, meets her, addresses her sin head on in one of the most tactful, loving ways I think anybody could ever do it. They leave. Jesus comes back to Samaria and everybody knows who he is. Hey, you know like might be reading into it, but you know what some scholars say. You know, the only reason why they knew is because she told them. The whore on her six husband says this guy just told me everything I did. He must be the Christ. And when Jesus comes back, there's crowds saying you know, like, she's the biggest evangelist you got. So there has to be somebody, and it may not be me, it may not be you, it may not be the church down the street, but somebody has to be at the well, at the hottest part of the day, to meet that person, and somebody has to be at the temple doing the thing.
Speaker 3:Maybe one of the things like, maybe, as a summary of what you're saying, given given the words back, is like each and every one of us need to be at, the well that God is playing for us to be at.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:There's a woman at the well in Samaria and there's a man at the well in a pulpit in a church somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like there, like there are people in need of compassion and mercy, like go and learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Like Jesus, like that was part of the plan. God says that he has set good works ahead of us from before we were born. So, like there are women at the well for Logan, there are women at the well for Jared for Grant for everyone. I think you said one of the greatest challenges and then what kind of flowed out of my mind was one of the greatest challenges is our unwillingness for the church or for the Christian body, is our unwillingness to be radically honest about our brokenness and sin. Because when Jesus makes that statement, one of you guys I think Grant noted on the head. Like he said, for I came not to call the righteous but sinners, so if all have fallen short of the glory of God and we are all sinners, and then we were like we relate to our sin by giving adoration to our savior, like we're never putting ourselves on the throne, because that's one of the. That would be like one of the broken pieces of what you talked about earlier with reform theology. Like reform, theology in my mind is summarized as like a deep knowledge of weakness and God's providence, but then an immediate step to to now take that providence and in act it is that we have power over it, versus to to hold our weakness in one hand and God's providence in the other hand and say there's adoration in between and that's where love flows from my heart, like there, and it's constantly increasing. So I love what you said, because it's like there is a the only I can't. We can't give what we don't have. So if we're not receiving the mercy of God in our deep brokenness and weaken and our deep brokenness and weakness, then I'm not ready to share with the horror, the well. I don't have I don't have the tenderness because I'm still hurting, I'm still my, my whole identity is on the line. Yeah, like I'm not prepared for that moment where I could have just offered love.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Instead of condemnation, because I'm still receiving condemnation in my own mind, in my own heart.
Speaker 2:And by all means again an argument for theology and getting down to these nitty gritties and stirring on them like, by all means, you know the, the have that tenderness, have that and have your stuff together, like, like, don't don't walk to the well and say I'm going to walk to the well, like you will get, you will get it handed to you, and I think that's I, you know. I think that is one of the reasons why you see these really unfortunate quote unquote downfalls of Christian leaders, whether that be in the music industry, whether that be from the pulpit, is you've taken somebody who you know is either really charismatic and speaking, is really good at playing music, and you elevate them and say, hey, congrats, you now have a platform and they're going bro, I just know how to sing. And then and now you thrust them in these things and they don't have, maybe they don't have a foundation. You will get chewed up and spit out, even even in a Christian music industry, which is unfortunate and so, like that. That's my argument for the yes, and that's why I think this tension plays in. And talking about this has been awesome, is like when Jesus went to the well, like he was sure of who he was right, no doubt about it. You feel called to fast for seven days, like there's going to be a time where that devil comes, says, hey, do you see this like this bread? You know, you want to just jump off the cliff and prove that you're God, right, and then what did Jesus do? Jesus quoted him back with scripture, not his own words, which would have told I mean, they technically was his whole words, because you know all that stuff. But the Jesus didn't come back to him with hit with dialogue, which if he did, he would have been perfectly right to do so but he came back in with scripture. So he's, he's, there's a level of if we are called to model Jesus's life, which we are, I mean, we have the same spirit in us, walk that gray and be equipped in the absolute truth that Grant was talking about, and I think that's why I think one of the reasons why, again, reform theology often gets knocked for all you guys, it was just talking about sin. All you do like to talk about sin is because I personally need to remind myself of who I would be if it weren't for Christ. So so I am a center made saint, which is baffling to say but if I for an out, if an for any span of time, think that I got myself in the situation, it's like. I think that's why it's like no, I am but dirt if it weren't for the blood of Christ. So so so, holding that tension in this is not who I am now. Praise be to God. But the moment I try to put myself in that throne, let me just quickly remind myself that this is who I would be if it weren't for Christ. And then that leads to worship.
Speaker 3:I love the Puritans and like a lot of our forefathers and all different denominations of the faith. One of the guys, charles Sinman, we love to butcher quotes here so I can look it up, but it's something along the lines that the fact that God has forgiven me of my sin never seemed a reason that I should forget. Yeah, like the whole concept was like yes, my sin has cast as far as these is from the West, but I know how far he's brought me and so remembering that doesn't cause me devastation. It creates more praise, it creates more adoration. Right, it's like the cross gets bigger.
Speaker 1:The love gets wider.
Speaker 3:And so he and some of John Piper has a series called the Swans Are Not Silent. His story is in one of those kind of like a little short biographies, but he just basically describes like sometimes it was almost like he was in a. Some people would think he's psychotic because he'd be in the highest point of praise and adoration and then, like five minutes later, be weeping over sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And like those to him, because of those two natures of sanctification and being the righteousness of God and his Thanksgiving, like those things taking place inside of him, that wasn't. That wasn't a imperfection, it wasn't like there was no condemnation. So to him it was like either of those places the valley or the mountaintop were acceptable on the journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that wasn't a, it was okay. It wasn't about him being right, it was about knowing the one who is righteousness and then being a reflection, like scripture says, we are the righteousness of Christ. So I love, I love that you brought up even the topic and it relates so much to what we're doing here. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:There's like the opposite of you know, I have to be right, is not I have to be wrong, you know? I think that's a point of clarity that I would want to provide is you know, as we're having this conversation, I'm not endorsing, don't have a posture on anything, don't have a stance on anything. The gospel, in its essence, is either going to be radically life giving or radically offensive, like there is no real in between.
Speaker 3:Well, generally, it'd be both.
Speaker 2:Right, yes, yes, but to the center who realized me for a savior, this can be life giving. To the center who says not, rather, have my sin Like you're now, you know that's offensive and I'm going to go the other way. So it's not. Don't proclaim truth, right, like Derek mentioned that with. With why way? I mean he's like we're not. We don't believe that silence is really an option for the Christian. So it's not. Don't say anything. Use the gospel at all times and, when necessary, use words is not a good quote. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work Now. That doesn't mean only say words and never do anything to show love, and I think that's what. That's what I want to. The caveat I want to say is you know, I had these conversations and there's a part of me in my head or there's people that I could imagine listening is going oh, that that sounds awful, like, that sounds pretty fluid. I was like no, it's not because it's it's, I don't want it to be. There's, there's solid, absolute truth. That truth is life giving. It's just how that truth gets there and how that truth is presented and operated needs to be thought through in a number of situations. I mean so let's, let's. Let's go here for a quick second. Like sexuality or work or anything, something that can take a high identity, high identity and sexuality is something that is, that is king of identity right now in our culture. You're having a conversation with somebody and you and you you were wanting to refute their identity in their sexuality and say I want to call you to a higher identity. And once you're under that identity, things come into priority, both in your sexuality and your work, how you view money, all that fun stuff. So if I'm coming at it and I'm thinking I got things squared away and I want to call them out of something, if I'm wrong and they're right, we kind of go our separate ways. If I'm right and they're wrong, I'm saying, hey, you need to throw a frag grenade in the thing you hold dear, which is ultimately the call of Christ at the end of the day, carry your cross. But I just don't, I don't think it is considered enough the implications of what the gospel can be in somebody's life. And so if you come and say, hey, you need to quit doing this, and it's just this like Nope, nope, nope, you need to do this because these are my convictions of this, like You're saying like, hey, just cut your own throat If you say we're called to carry a cross, it's the same message and the same call to death. But there's an element of and let me die with you, like I've kind of going back to what you said of. I've been shown this, therefore, like I've died and I know that dying and living in Christ is it Like it is life giving, it is living water, and so it's not died because you're doing wrong, it's died because I know what that death could mean in life.
Speaker 3:Right, but without the living that allows them to taste and see by sitting at your table or partaking of the only thing you're offering is death.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Like you're just saying die, die, die. And if you're continually speaking, quote right theology, but as for you and your house, there's no table where anybody's welcome to partake of resurrection Then you're a clinging symbol, you're a useless. You're a useless object that's interrupting the flow of everybody else who's actually doing some healthy work about their life. And so, yeah, it could be argued like what are some of the old advantages of death? Like what you? It's not about what you say, it's about what you do at the end of the day. Like, at the end of the day, man like you and I can be culprits of that's a lot of talk, yeah, but you know what? What have you actually? What have you? What is it? What have you done for me lately?
Speaker 1:Like what have you actually done today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, and you can have, like I wrote a while ago, good intention without inspiration is what leads to desperation. So I was thinking about the idea of, like we can have great intentions on the stage, but if we're not inspired to good work, then, really, we're just desperate to make something happen in other people, to prove our worth, instead of just being simply faithful, and so that's probably like where my heart settles on on. A lot of this debate is like. At the end of reality, I'm going to be able to speak alone, for, as for me and my house, like I'm going to stand accountable first and foremost the house, that is, this temple that I'm pointing out in this video, like me and my this, this temple.
Speaker 2:First Corinthians 316, baby yeah.
Speaker 3:And then my house like. So, culturally speaking, there's a definement, who, like you mentioned, there's an identity of how it is for us to be a family in my house. There's an identity of how it is for me and my own personal identity in the, in this temple, that you could even consider it the promised land, because I'm made from dirt, like Jesus, on this, this little spot of earth as it is in heaven. So I can hold those things to be like disciplined, immovable principles of how my house functions. The whole purpose of that is that a sinner can not be aligned with that and then come have a meal at the table. Like the entire point is that that be a lighthouse to those on the rocks? Like the ship on the rocks is not, or the ship tossing the waves is not the same as the lighthouse. Like they have two different purposes. But to think that I'm the source of light, yeah, like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's. It's unloving and it's and it's death to come at truth with no love. It is unloving and death to not say anything and let them live in their sin. There's that, there's that truth and love middle point that is so, so hard to grasp, yet so beautiful when it is lived out.
Speaker 1:I love what you said about like the come die with me, like we're going to go die with Jesus kind of thing. That is a much bigger thing and a much more enticing message If you're already doing it, rather than like just the actions matter so much, but also like you have to say the words like, hey, you know we're, we're trying our best to do what Jesus did, but actively. Like they look at your life and they're like this guy has given up everything and it's been wrecked by the gospel. It has literally changed so much. And they see that and they see you and they're like, hey, come do this with me. And it's like that's so much more of a just an enticing message, because that's how I was led to Christ. I saw one of my friends do that and who is an absolute wreck and was a man, has grown up, and I saw, I saw him just his whole life completely changed, and not for like two months, but like for like years, and it was like that's whatever he's got. I'd like some of that because it's sustainable and it's good. So I'd like whatever he's got. That's just something that's so beneficial and I love the way you put that of just you know I'm already dying.
Speaker 2:You ever watched a pastor? You ever watched a pastor confess his sin from the pulpit? You know, like, like that is it's heavy. It's heavy or confess weakness, yeah, or confess weakness, and yet it's that that actually makes you goes. This is a guy worth listening to. You know, like in the ups and the upside down kingdom. It's like, yeah, this, this guy. Because it's like I'm I'm willing to go to battle with this guy because this guy gets it.
Speaker 3:There's hope there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because he says I'm weak and I'm sharing that with you and I am not hopeless. And then, like you, ever read the scripture where it says and they saw that man and then gave glory to God. Yeah, like that is one of the most confusing sentences and all I can think like it almost feels like humor to me that God's like. They looked at that and they were like clearly, yeah, they're like I'm not what made this place, praise God for his way, and like that's what that feels like. It's like they see that mess of a man and they're like you know what? I hope there may not be hopelessness for me. It may be that all hope is not lost, because if that broken thing can still say man, I feel so weak and so broken and so devastated. But there's just this hope in me, this joy in me that I can't describe. And then they walk that out Like they don't kill themselves or don't just turn into a pool of tears for their next 10 years. Like, all of a sudden people like Grant said it's like I need some of that. Yeah, like I don't know what that is, but if it's in that cup, like yeah, let's go ahead.
Speaker 2:And how many pastors and just insanely charismatic speakers that can just say all the things that are on your heart. You just didn't know how how many of them relate to Moses. I was like, hey, I told God I'd do anything except for preach. You know, and like, and now it's like. And here I am 10 years later and it's like how many pastors go.
Speaker 3:I hate this.
Speaker 2:And it's like, but I think the reason why they're saying that is anything that sounds good, that comes out of my mouth is clearly not from me, right, and so you know, it's one thing for the really really good, you know, singer or speaker to be like, oh, of course they would do that, like of course they would because that's what they have, and not to not to discredit those gifts from God. But there is a level of which is where I think, you know, I think this is why I am second and there's like this is why I think testimonies became so big and still it's, still are, but like they're kind of. They're kind of came a time where, like, having a dramatic testimony was something you had to have, which isn't true, but why? Why they are powerful, is because your friend Grant, it wasn't the perfect polished Christian who grew up in the church. He said I want that. He was the dude who like 180 and it was like, hey, I know that he wasn't capable of that 180. So they had to be something else. So that and that doesn't that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that I changed my prayer for my daughters to never. You know, my prayer for them is that they never know a day where they didn't know Christ, where they just they're 30 years old, like, hey, when did you get saved? It's like I don't know. I just kind of grew up in it. I love the Lord, I'm not going to change that. I'm not going to change that prayer to let say, let fall off the deep end at 17 and then be found in a ditch at 18, and then she comes. Know the Lord, I'm not going to change my prayer. But there is a, there is power in those testimonies in which God chooses to pull somebody out of that pit, reveal themselves on the road to Damascus. There is, there is an element of power because you know that, you know that had to be something, that you know, that's it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the Across the Tenner Podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you get this podcast. Thanks y'all, thanks y'all.
