You Matter to God | Joseph Yoo | Episode 34

Speaker 1: 0:00

Pull up a chair across the counter. You're one stop shop for a variety of perspectives around Jesus and Christianity. I'm Grant Lockridge and I'm here with Logan Rice today and we're interviewing Joseph you so, Joseph, just tell me how you got connected with Tim Whitaker and how you, like, entered you know the space that you're in now.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Um, actually the funny thing about Tim was, um, I, I, I knew often because of different connections, and um, I was putting out a book and I wanted Tim's endorsement and you know, like, right, a little blurb. Just I was like, hey, you don't have to do the whole thing, just read the first chapter or the last chapter, which is my favorite chapter, and just give me a little blurb on that and then send it in. And he's like I got you, I got you, and then he forgot. So, um, I, I emailed him one day and I was like, hey, man, uh, it's all good, uh, if you can't do it, but I need to know it because I have to turn it, turn this into my publisher today. And he's like, dude, I am so sorry, and it's like, I'll make it up to you when the book comes out, call me and I'll put you on the podcast. And uh, that's how I, I, I, I jilted him into being a friend of mine, um and uh, we just um, yeah, and so we've just been connected. Then, since then, I got to uh, be a guest on his podcast and, um, somehow, one way or another, um, um, uh, part of his uh, uh, the project that the new evangelicals are putting out. Um, so I don't really know, uh, uh, tim, that well, I know well enough to like slide into his DMs and troll him a little bit. Um, but, uh, that's, that's my extent to of our relationship so far Him and I.

Speaker 1: 1:43

So what? What is this book about? I didn't know. You're releasing a new book or have you released it yet?

Speaker 2: 1:48

Oh yeah, it came out last February. Um, it was just, it's a, uh it's called, when the Sinks go flying in and um, it's on, it's available on Amazon. And basically, I take uh, nine stories of Sinks and highlight something that was interesting, interesting about them, so that I can connect it to part of my story. So it's just a uh, uh, like semi, uh memoir semi, like reflections on faith and life and everything in between. Um and so uh, checked off the bucket list of of of writing an actual book and and publishing it. Um, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:25

That's impressive. That's always. I've always like thought about writing a book but then tried to start a little something and then just giving up because it feels difficult. So it's like, yeah, it was on. That was kind of telling me the writing process.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Yeah, it was not an easy process. Um, I and uh I hit. When I hit writer's block. You know, I was writing while I was drinking a little bit of wine and the more like writer blocks, uh, the more I was frustrated, the more, you know, a little bit more I pour into my cup. And then the next morning I had to delete everything because I realized I wrote half a chapter, pretty sloshed, and I was like no one's going to read that. I can barely read that.

Speaker 1: 3:05

And this is coming from an Episcopalian priest Is that?

Speaker 2: 3:11

Uh yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:12

But how do you settle on Episcopalian?

Speaker 2: 3:15

All right. So this uh. So I was born and raised uh and baptized and ordained in the United Methodist church Uh, my dad is a retired United Methodist pastor and my father-in-law is a retired United Methodist pastor. Um, so, um, I was, I was uh in in for those just church terms of Methodist terms. I was made a uh provisional elder in 2008 and became a full on ordained clergy in 2012. And um, uh was uh moved to Texas, uh, houston, in 2016 and um was introduced to a new bishop that did not recruit me to Houston. And um, that new bishop and I already I already knew when he was coming in that we're going to have, uh, vastly different views on theology and on society and all that kind of stuff. Um, so, uh, I already knew that was going to be kind of difficult for me. And then, um, the way the Methodist church works for those of you that are not familiar, the bishop tells you where to move within the geographical area of what's called the annual conference and um, uh, so, basically, like it's kind of like the military, like the bishop deploys you to go to this church and and, theoretically, you're not supposed to say no to the bishop, because the idea behind it? Um, is that the bishop and what's called the cabinet, all the district superintendents, whatever, they get together and they pray and as a spirit prompting them to move you to this church, because your, your, your, your gifts and the needs of the church happens to match and it's a good fit to get us whatever. Um, that's how it's ideally supposed to be, um, but of course, we're all human beings and there's some uh uh politics involved and punishments involved and whatnot. If you uh, if you do uh, it's not supposed to be a ladder climbing type of um, uh, uh, a polity, but you know it's. You do well at one church and all of a sudden, your next church is twice the size and whatnot. And if you are the twice aside a really big church and you you may a couple of mistakes, all of a sudden you're back to a church like 30 people. You know there's there's a lot of like humaneness involved that takes away from the idea of how the spirit is supposed to be moving us. All of that said uh, the bishop uh wanted to move me to a place, uh, in East Texas. Uh, if there's a city, uh that's called Tyler, that's uh, uh, and we're he was trying to move us 30 minutes north of that. I got that call on a Friday afternoon around 2pm saying that he wants me to move to this place called Chandler, texas, and, um, I was supposed to let them know if I accept or uh, by Sunday. Um, so my son, uh, he's on the autism spectrum and um, when we moved to Texas from California, we already lost a lot of uh services that he got in California. Uh, because Texas, unless you can play football, don't really care much about you in the public school system. Um, and so, uh, I I didn't have enough time to call and research the school system because they called me up Friday like 2pm. Um, all the teachers are pretty much gone at like three, three, 30. Uh, so I'm doing like random researches, I'm trying to find like subreddits of Tyler on Reddit and like trying to just ask people what is the special needs education and all that stuff, like in the city, and uh, in the little like one hour research I could do. The basic gist I got back was uh, why are you moving here? If you're in Houston, right, like, if you have a special needs kids, why are you moving here? So that scared me. On top of that, um, houston, especially in in 20, uh, 2018, 2019, was the most diverse city in the United States. Um, I don't know if we still hold that title, but we are still a very diverse city. The Asian population of the city that I was going to was 0.01% and I, at my age, did not want to deal with p telling people no, I'm not Chinese, yes, it is different. No, not all of it. You know, like I didn't. I didn't want to deal with all these little preconceived uh uh stereotypes that people have of Asian people because they never met Asian people. So, um, I basically told the Bishop I couldn't go. And uh, obviously the Bishop was not happy to hear that. And, um, after a couple of uh emails, he asked me to meet in person. Um, I got my. Am I allowed to curse?

Speaker 3: 7:43

Go for it.

Speaker 2: 7:45

I got my ass handed to me, um, and and that wasn't really bad of a curse word, but that's just for future reference and um, he basically gave me three options. One, I can accept the appointment and move, shut my mouth and move. Two, I can take a year of absence where I will lose all my benefits so my family will lose their healthcare plan and what not and uh find a real world job and then reapply for uh reinstatement the following year. Or I can move out of the city or out of this conference, basically move elsewhere there that he's not the Bishop of. And so, um, the I wasn't going to go to that place in uh in Chandler. I was worried that, if I take number two as an option, when it's time to get ready for the Bishop to send me that the Bishop was sending to even more of a rural place. And so we just we try to move back to the West coast. We're trying to really hard to get to Seattle. It didn't work out. We're trying to really hard to get to uh, back to California. Um, that wasn't happening as fast as I would like it to, and I was uh in a world of confusion and, like I put my family in this mess. I was stressed out and, um, I had met. I met a friend, uh a couple of years before 2019, who was, uh, an Episcopalian who works for the Episcopal Church of Diocese of Texas, and um, we had very common uh backgrounds and whatnot. So one day I reached out to uh ask if you could get coffee with me, because I wanted to vent because I was so frustrated and stressed out. And um, he's like sure, and uh, we meet at this coffee shop. And uh, before I, you know, the first thing he says to me was let's cut. Uh, let's cut to the ship. I have a job to offer. You, do you want it? We want you to plant a church in the city that you're in, and, um, the only only catches you're going to have to be an Episcopalian to do it. And at first I was like no, I'm good, because, uh, I felt like, um, I knew the method of this institution well enough. You know it's like the enemy, you know, um, and I didn't want to learn a whole new policy, a whole new language, a whole new institutions and figure out you know how to fight that, because, as lovely as churches are, you know, institutions are always going to be institutions. They're always going to look for how to save the institution. That's going to be, no matter. You know, like that's just. That's just how institutions operate. And so, um, after much prayer and thinking and crying, and talking to my parents and my wife and whatnot. Um, it just started to make sense and so, um, I officially accepted the proposal. Um went and turned in my orders of my uh ordination to the United Methodist Church went through a separate, another ordination process to become an Episcopal priest. And here we are.

Speaker 3: 10:35

Wow, that's a journey. So so you, you, you grew up. You grew up UMC, family UMC, and then Chandler's a no go, and and next thing, you know, you're, you're. Not only are you joining a new denomination, but you're planting. So what I mean? I kind of have two questions for just for my own edification. One is what were some of the differences between the UMC world and the Episcopalian world that you had to learn? And then two, what was that church plant like in? And you say you planted in Houston.

Speaker 2: 11:16

Yeah, so we're in the suburb of Houston, um, first question uh, overall, the big picture, there's not much difference because, uh, john Wesley uh, the founder of the Methodist movement was an Anglican, so theologically, uh, it was very, very similar. Uh, but, man, uh, I tell you what the Episcopalians are really, really, really, really picky about uh, how they do things and, um, the way that church is done is different. For instance, in the United Methodist Church, you can walk into a Methodist church and it could be a like a uh, uh, contemporary kind of evangelical style of worship, or it can be like a choir road worship, whatnot. Um, we as Episcopalians don't have that much freedom. We have to follow the book of common prayer and there's a uh, we kind of kind of have to follow that uh as close as possible. Um, but because I'm only uh, you know, because I've only been a priest in the Method in the Episcopal Church, uh, I got ordained in 2022. Um, my MO has been asked for forgiveness and played ignorance Like, oh, I didn't know. We're supposed to do that. Um, because there are things where, um, there's so like one of the stories that I I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for telling this, but I don't care. Um, at first of all, not many Episcopal churches use bread for communion. They use the, they use the like Catholic wafers, whatever, and, um, I don't like that because it just it doesn't. It tastes like styrofoam and whatnot. So, uh, we have someone that bakes, uh, gluten-free bread for the church for communion. Uh, and the thing about gluten-free bread is, is that a lot of times it crumbles everywhere. So by the time we're done with communion and we do communion every week um, there's bread crumbs all over the floor. And and I know for the, I know for the fact, for the most fact, we're not supposed to like, you're not supposed to throw away the elements in trash after they've been consecrated. You're supposed to dump, uh, dump. You know I'm supposed to say dump. You're supposed to pour the wine into, uh, onto the ground. Um, it can't go into the sewage. Um, and then the, the, the bread, the leftover bread, um either needs to be consumed or, um, it can't be thrown in the trash. You have to, like scatter out to the birds or whatnot. So, um, uh, after you clean up, all the crumbs there's, there's, like I could pick up the big crumbs. There's little crumbs that, like are in the carpet that's going to take forever to pick up. So, you know, I'm just going and vacuuming it and and just vacuuming up the little crumbs and I made the mistake of sharing that with, uh, a couple of clergy and I've never seen young clergy about to have a heart attack, like they're like you did what. I'm like I'm not going to spend, I'm not going to get on my knees and pick up little crumbs, like that's. That's inefficient. He's like, but you're not supposed to vacuum it and I'm like, I'm, I'm pretty, you know what. If that's the case, I I don't know, but I think Jesus is going to be okay, like, yeah, so there's a lot of like those little little things that, uh, I'm still getting used to it and we realized that, okay, uh, I got a not to haul everyone, everything and, um, just keep stuff to myself. Um, as for the church plant, uh, we were supposed to launch in August of 2020. And, just like everyone else in the entire world, all of our plans were shifted because of everything being shut down when we were in the height of the pandemic. So it was a weird time. I did everything backwards because you're supposed to have a team before you launch, and I was getting a team together and then the pandemic happened and everyone had to figure out what was next. So I didn't bother the people Like. I was like, let's just, we'll convene in a year. But by then I knew that I would have lost the momentum and whatnot. And the musician that I was gonna hire. I purposely hired someone who was more musically oriented than worship oriented, and it turns out Nick, who is the frontman of a local band called Astro Inn. He was a lapsed Catholic, but and hadn't it kind of like? I don't know, maybe he's agnostic, but I felt like he'd be the perfect entry for people who might not ever been part of a church or might have been burned by the church. That was the demographic I was trying to reach for. We didn't have the word thing constructing back then. Even in 2020, the word thing constructing wasn't in the vocabulary of church world. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't happening. We were just we were calling it a church people at that time, and so I thought that Nick would be a perfect fit for what we're trying to do. But Nick had lost all of his gigs because he would host open mics, he'd go to shows and whatnot to do his music stuff. And I was trying to figure out what creative ways I can provide him a little bit of salary and whatnot. And then my boss at the time said why don't you launch an online service so that one Nick gets used to Christian music? And he knew the hymns because he went to Catholic school like the contemporary Christian, like he had no idea who Hillsong was. I'm gonna teach him who David Crowder was or is and whatnot. And yeah. And Chris Tomlin, david Crowder, hillsong, matt Redman introducing him to that world. And then the other thing was so that I could get used to the liturgy that we have to use. And so in Pentecost of 2020, we lost online and online liturgy and started there and did that for a year. And then in August of September of 2021, we launched in person, while it was just me and Nick. I was doing everything. I didn't have any lay support or lay leaders. We just ran and ran and ran and did that when people were asking me how does you know, how's the church going? What does it feel like? I kept telling people you know, it felt like we launched the rocket into space, but as we're going, as we're flying into the atmosphere, we're still working on some of the you know like putting together some of the stuff, because you know things are falling apart and whatnot. So we're just hoping that we can, you know, make it, but in the meantime, as we're soaring, we're still putting stuff together. It doesn't quite feel like that anymore Now that we've been in person for two years, almost three, but I don't recommend church planting to during the pandemic, and I see why many church planters are in their 20s and 30s. I started this when I was 40. And I really think that being a single 25 year old is a perfect candidate for planting a whole new church.

Speaker 3: 18:09

Yeah, I've heard it's a young man's game from the veteran church planters. Like, hey, now that I'm 40, now that I'm 50, I'm trying to slow down and mentor the folks who have the tenacity to tackle the church planning world.

Speaker 2: 18:22

It's a different world, yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:25

So one thing you mentioned when you were talking about you know your worship leader or your musician was the mission of your church to reach folks who have been burned or hurt by the church or maybe in that kind of deconstructing phase. Tell me more about that, Like what's the heart behind you know? What is your heart, in particular for that population? You know, and even thinking about how your departure from the UMC world went with like an ultimatum of pick one, I mean, is there a personal testimony behind why the burned or hurt folks are on your heart, or something else?

Speaker 2: 19:10

Well, first of all, that is not the best demographic to try to plant a church around, because I learned really quickly that they don't wanna come back to the church. So like it's a weird dynamic because I have one person who calls me their priest. Like I ran into them at a restaurant and they're like, oh hey, this is my friend. And then to her friend she's like, oh, this is my priest. I'm like she called me her priest but she's never stepped into a church once. So this is really weird like area where another story I have is I met this person who was really, really hurt by the church when he came out and just, absolutely has, just hates the idea of church. But he's a talented carpenter and at that time I was. We were looking for an altar table, a communion table, and I asked him hey, we will pay you the fair amount, you don't have to give us any discount, but I really want to see if you would make a table for me. And he asked me what it was for and I told him it was for our communion and he said I'm sorry, I don't want any of anything that's built with my hand ever associated with any religious rituals. So I'm gonna decline, and I was. That's when I realized, oh my God, some of those cuts go real, real deep and so, like I have all these people who will get coffee with me, get lunch with me, or they'll text me when they need some help or advice, whatnot, and so kind of, in a sense I am their pastor, but anytime church or idea of being in a church building comes up, they completely shut out, shut down, and I'm like, okay, so not the best demographic to build a church around, especially when you have to have some obligations of metrics to meet, especially when, because our church plan is completely subsidized. It's funded by an endowment fund by the diocese. So right now we're fully funded by the big church. So we have to keep. I have to show effort in that. We're growing in one way or the other. I think part of it was being from the Korean church. I always had affinity with the pastors, kids of Korean churches, because there's I don't know, I think the closest of the Korean church pastors kid experience is people who are like Southern, southern, Baptist and pastors and their kids. I think that's the closest experience of the trauma and a lot of the abandonment that these kids feel, because they've always felt that their father chose and it's usually their fathers chose God, and not even God chose the church over them. So you have this kid who grows up and dad misses all of his football games, basketball games, band competitions, because there's always a meeting, whatnot. And they tend to be the most rotten as kids at church too, because they're always acting out. I don't know if they do it intentionally, but I'm pretty sure probably was trying to get their dad's attention. So the PKs are either really really really naive and innocent or just God awful rotten kids. And so I always felt affinity to that. Because I grew up as a PK, I've had a different experience, where my dad was home all the time and never got a chance to get in trouble, because every time I come home my dad and mom were there and my dad would always tell us how much he loved us, which when I was 13, 14, 15, 16, that was the last thing I wanted to hear from my dad. But now that I'm like 40, I'm really grateful that he went out of his way. It was not very Korean male of his generation to express how much he loved his sons. So I wish I, looking back, I wish I had taken advantage of that. I mean, my dad's still with us, it's not like he's gone, but I felt like I could be this nurturing presence for these kids who are hurting so much and no one's really understanding why they are hurting. And then I think that kind of transferred over a lot of people who had church trauma. And it's not like all these young people, it's all stages of life. I think what really helped open my eyes to how traumatic and harmful a church could be was when I was in Santa Barbara. We had this person who came to church and she told me that she wanted to get coffee with me and so we got coffee and she told me that she hadn't been to church for 15 years. My church was the first church she's been to in 15 years and I asked her you know, tell me your story. I'm basically her and her husband helped plant this church. There were one of the founding members. They literally put bricks on the wall that. They literally helped build this church and it was a successful church. They they heard her husband ran a Sunday school that was the most well-attended Sunday school in the church and there were just there were. There were the. They're the type of couple that you'd want on your team or on your church, right, like they do everything. They're there, they have a servant's heart and all that stuff. But the deep, dark secret was that the husband was abusive and that no one knew behind doors like how, how much, how abusive he was to her. And one day she said no more. She had the courage, she finally find the courage to take her two kids and just go and she left her husband. She stayed with her family for a little while, thought for the bores and then, when everything kind of settled on, she came back to her city because you know, I found a home in near the city, near the kids school, so that the school doesn't change. And she had hoped that this church that she was with from the very, very beginning would be receptive to her and walk with her in the most tumultuous season of a life. But as soon as she walked in she said all of a sudden I just felt this coldness, people weren't really looking under an eye. People weren't really talking to her, the she was in the choir and the choir was always kind of like you know, every time she walked in, like the conversations would stop. So, like she didn't, she felt like they were always talking about her and whatnot turns out at that church divorce was still a very, very no-no thing to do and they, the church leaders, were very, very uncomfortable that this divorcee was like having parts of the church where that you know, like she was seen on stage and and whatnot. And then, finally, the pastor, about a two weeks later after she turned, pulled her aside and said hey, that Sunday school that you're teaching, we felt that it was supposed to be a couple's Sunday school led by a couple, and because you're not a couple anymore, we're gonna have to ask you to step down and and either, you know, be part of the Sunday school or find a different Sunday school, because you're not gonna leave it anymore because you know you don't, you don't have a husband and and she just felt so betrayed and so hurt. And then she was crying, as she's telling me this, even though you know, like she's, even though it's been like 15, 20 years or so, that this it's been more than that. This happened so. So she started bouncing around churches and finally she can, she couldn't find this footing and then she just stopped going all together. And one day she had a coffee with a friend who goes to my church and she was her friend, was like you know, maybe it's time to you know, I know you really love the community. Maybe it's time to give it a second chance. Try, try, come to our church is a little bit different from what you might have experienced, and our pastor is crazy. So I think you'll, you'll, whatever. And so she came in and and she told me a story and and she stayed for as long as I was there and that story just really, really resonated with him because it finally put a face on what I always knew how sometimes the church could be harmful. But I never really had like like specific stories where people, like lives, were turned upside down because the church abandoned them. So then you start, you know, your eyes starts opening to and ears are opening to other stories where, where people really really wanted to have a faithful faith journey, but somewhere along the way the church made it incredibly difficult for them for one reason or another and they just felt like you know it's. It's really hard for people to separate the actions of the church from the actions of God, right? So like if they feel rejected by the church. It's really hard to separate that. They're being like to separate or that's not God, that's the church. It's easier for them to say, oh yeah, so I've been rejected by both God and the church, because the church is supposed to be God's representative, the church is God's bride, whatever. So so that that story of the divorce, say. And then a lot of the LGBTQ people that have shared their stories with me, a lot of people who, even before 2016, people who were fully starting to see that the stories that they were taught and Sunday school are not aligning with the actions that the adults are saying or not, and there's this disconnect between what the church teaches and how the church people behave, and they don't know how to reconcile that and so so they leave. So all these things started coming out. I started becoming more aware of them and thought that you know if, if there's a way for me to at least play a mediator in between them and God and and let them know that what they experienced from the church was unfortunate, but that never changed their, their, their, the fact that they're always God's beloved. I mean, if I can get that message to them one way or other, that's what I want to do and I've always been doing that. You know, even in, even in Houston, when I first moved, I was an associate pastor at the last message to serve. I know I always try to find people to connect with and and I always worked out of coffee shops because I can't work in the office. So when you're at coffee shops you just start, you know if you're a regular at a particular coffee shops, people, you just start talking conversation, you just started start making connections, start talking to people and and if you meet, if you see them long enough, some, after all, their guards drop and then they'll tell you a story about them and then that's it. We're connected now, like you tell me your story, I tell your story, and now and now we're at least mutual, like we're at least acquaintances, you know, and through those kind of interactions I've met many, many people who really gave this church thing a good go but it didn't work out. And what I've learned is that while they gave church and in the generalization you know, they gave church to try, but but they were never actually equipped to to give a commitment to follow Jesus's try. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3: 30:38

yeah, yeah, yeah, grant and I are both, we're both millennials. I'm, you know, I'm 28, so the the deconstruction, you know hashtag ex-fangirlical. You kind of come out and tell your story and it all it's. It's the beginning, starts very similar of this is what I grew up with or this is what I was taught, and then there's kind of this point of revelation and then the deconstruction process happens, as somebody who's kind of in that space of church, hurt your wounds and you know I mentioned but before we had the word deconstruction, we had D churched. I mean, what does? What would you say to somebody who is deconstructing and, you know, maybe, maybe, isn't separating the church from from God and is now looking at deconstructing the faith all together rather than just practices the church? And what would you say to somebody who is who comes to you and says this is where I'm at. You know, clearly you are and the church that you set up is a is a safe place to have those conversations. So what do those dialogues look like of following Jesus and and and separating that from, from wounds and things like that in the church that they grew up in?

Speaker 2: 31:59

yeah. So a lot of pastors. I've shared with this a couple of pastor friends, and they vehemently disagree with me. I usually tell, if they're, if they have the courage to share with me about their deconstructing story. I try not to impede in it. Like I'm I, I want to help them but I'm not going to tell them what to do or whatnot. You know there's already trauma and I don't want another pet. I don't want them to express in that past or you should do this, you do that, and I've told every single person that that shared with me who's on this deconstructing journey. I told them, if they never get to a space of reconstructing, to me that doesn't change who you are and our relationship. Like if you finally figure out that you know God isn't for me or I don't believe in God. I'm not going to force you to change your mind. I'm not gonna be like alright, well, the Bible says we're not gonna have a debate or I'm just gonna walk with you until you don't need to walk with me anymore. So so, which is really, again, not a great way to grow your church. But at this point I'm more concerned about their, their, their mental health and their sanity more than telling the powers that be okay, on this Sunday we had 88 people and whatnot. So you, when I was 28, you're so young, god. When I was like 27, 28, I wanted to like change the world like I wanted to. Like I wanted it was ego driven for sure. I wanted to be like, hey, this is what's wrong with the United nuts at this church. And then I wanted to be like this is why you need to fix it, you know, and then have that presence and platform and and that Popularity or notoriety, oh yeah, oh yeah. This kid is, is is going to change, maybe not the denomination, but it's gonna make a difference in our inner craft is like I had that kind of Dream and ego and and hunger, but now, like I'm 43. I don't want changing the world is too much work. Who, I don't care, I don't. And I read the story. I read this book by Donald I think it was by Donna Miller, the one, the guy that wrote blue, like jazz, he's like this marketing person now, and he's in a book that he wrote. He says something like you don't need to be the hero of every story or whatever, and so that really resonated with me and now I really feel like in my life, instead of like being the Luke Skywalker of People's story, I want to be the Yoda of their hero journey, or I guess, you know, since I'm Asian, I want to be the mr Miyagi to their Daniel son. And so, really, these people that come with their deconstructing, you know, if they asked for my advice, I'll give it to them and I'll say here's what I think, but this is what I think. You know, I always get that disclaimer like I could be wrong. But you know, and and I'm just hearing them walking with them, I just want them to be at a place where they feel healthy and safe and I really, really, really hope that that, in this process together, that they feel like the talk to mayors, like they feel like the burning of of their hearts as their top top, you know, figuring out this journey. But if they, if they Decide that this, this, this, this, this was a phase I've heard this this was a phase in their life that they're no longer want to be part of, I don't, I don't shame them. I don't shame them, I don't guilt them, I don't wish hell upon them. You know, I'm like. You know, that's as long as you're happy and you're good. You know I'm happy for you and if you ever need me, I'm always here for you. You know, like and, and, and. I've stolen this from Andy Stanley, but the motto, one of the things that we repeat at church often is Everybody matters to God, even if God doesn't matter to them, and they tell them. You know, hey, you matter to me and you matter to God, even if I diverse God, I don't matter to you, and I just always want you to know that. So there's a couple of people who are deconstructing and still are part of our church. There are people who have completely deconstructed but like the idea of community and like to hear Jesus stories is still part of they come to our church. And then there are people who I've walked with and and and and completely have deconstructed, don't, aren't even interested in reconstructing their faith and and they're. They're happy being heathens and I'm happy for them.

Speaker 1: 36:39

First of all, I I found a episode title that we should use is vacuuming up the body of Christ, so that's gonna be the episode title. Now, I'm just kidding, but, um, I got it. I couldn't help myself. I waited too long to say that but so in that space, in a church, how do you, how do you find the line of the place to like, lovingly, call out sin, or the place to lovingly, like you know, put people or help people to find you know the right path, or to know that Jesus cares about them but also cares about you, know their sin and repenting and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Um, yes, that's a very good question, Um, and.

Speaker 1: 37:37

I know this.

Speaker 2: 37:42

You know we, there are ways. So, so the way I, first of all, the way that I approach repentance, um, and there's some church trauma for me because I grew up in, I grew up in a mess of church, but it was very evangelical. Like the Korean immigrant church tends to be conservative, and I still remember at the age of 11, 10, 11, 12, that around that age we were at a youth group sleepover and the youth pastor showed us a, a movie about the rapture and end of the world, and I still remember like scenes of, uh, people having swords that got left behind and that was very like I was scared, you know, like they scared me into believing Jesus. Um, and so one, uh, one of the things that I say is I believe that is how you get people into your church, is how you have to keep them there. So if you scare people into the church, you have to keep them scared so that they stay in your church. If you guilt and shame people into your church, you have to keep them feeling guilty and shamed so that they stay in your church. Um, and and Please, by no means am I minimizing the power and problem of sin, but I try to tend to focus on on the fact that they are loved more than they are sinners. So when I, when we talk about repentance, you know, uh, we talk about how repentant Uh, repent, and in the Hebrew word is like tshuvah, which means to return. So instead of saying you're doing something so bad, it's almost like, hey, you tried life on your own. And how is you know that, dr Phil? How is it working out for you? Um, god, the best and most purposeful and fulfilling life you can live is the life that god has always intended for you. So why don't you try to return to the arms of grace and and reorient your life so that you can live in the manner that god lives? Um, my, my dad's korean Full on korean and and the generation of my parents, uh, you know their the belief was you beat the kids that you love. You beat, you know, discipline into them. There was a saying that my dad used to tell me. It says that give the kids you hate candy and give the kids you hate, uh, the stick and I like, spank, like, discipline your kids that you love, because that's what love is. And so, from from like, from six to like, I think the last beating I got from my dad was 13, like my dad used physical, uh, corporal punishment on me and then after that I guess he knew, understood that once a kid turns like a teenager or whatnot, you need to stop hitting them. So after that my dad, whenever I got in trouble, would sit me down and and literally have a bible study with me about what I did wrong, to the point where I was thinking, man, getting beat was so much better than sitting through this bible study. But one day I really messed up and and my dad said to me um, you are a you and this is not how yous behave and we are. You need to be proud of who you are and you need proud of your name, you need to be proud of your family name and we need to live up to who we are meant to be. And so, as a you, you should not behave like this. And and that resonated- with me and I feel like that's the kind of message that I would rather try to get people to hear you are a beloved child of god, and, and beloved children of god, while we make mistakes, you know, don't you know, we try to better ourselves and we try to better one another. We try to carry each other's uh Struggles, we try to love one another. So, live up to this, this, this type, live up to being god's beloved, because that's who you are, that's where, that's where you start from, and, um, so like, obviously, when there's an issue and someone Approaches me one on one, and you know like, I have no problem saying, hey, that kind of behavior is destructive, and it's not. It's not only like, it's not only sin, uh, but it's, it's just not helping you become the person that you should be, that we all know you to be, um, and so I always wanted to, uh, I always want to point the story, not to like, not to shame them, but to give them hope that, hey, this is not how you're supposed to live. And and and again, look, how is this working out for you. You've, you've done this thing on your own, and, and, and you know like you're miserable. So let's try, let's try it differently. Let's let's try to invoke god's spirit in this. Let's let's pray before making decisions. Let's let's own up to our mistakes and let's name them and own them so that we can Uh move on for them. Because if you don't name it and you don't own it, you're gonna continue to deflect and it's always gonna be around because you're not, you're not changing it, because you don't know what to change. So, um, uh, from the pulpit, I rarely address, like you know, like a certain baptist or evidence, like you know, brim and helst, on what not like uh, because I, I, I truly believe, if I, if I keep shaming this people, these people that who come here, I'm gonna have to continue to shame them so that they stay here, and I don't want that. I just want them to know that they are loved and they are meant for so much more than Then we have. And and, while sin is a big problem, that it gets in the way of community, it gets in the way of uh living a fulfilling life. I feel like there are different ways to To to address that. Then the traditional way of you're a sinner, if you don't change, you're going to hell.

Speaker 3: 43:05

Fair yeah, that's great. How you get people in your church is how you have to keep them there that is so solid. That's a solid quote, yeah, so. So, shifting gears, maybe a little bit. You know you've mentioned, you know, your korean, growing up in the korean church, your father's korean. Yesterday, I believe, you posted, uh, your korean-american story and watch that. Listen to that. You talked about, um, you and your wife and family planning and how that maybe didn't go to plan and Uh, foster care journey and then that led to adoption and then your son Is it nathaniel?

Speaker 2: 43:47

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:49

What I mean. What was that journey like in terms of, you know, foster care to adoption, to all that? I mean what? What I encourage all of the listeners to go check it out on your Instagram it was. It was a wonderful viewing and you did a great job telling that story, but maybe not great enough to get first place. It was a competition. No resentment there. It was?

Speaker 2: 44:13

it was a story, slam competition and I got second place.

Speaker 3: 44:19

Oh well, dessert first. I haven't seen any other, any other of the competitors, but I thought it deserved first. I mean, would you, would you feel comfortable sharing more on that and in that process and adopting your son and all that?

Speaker 2: 44:33

Yeah, you know it was. I always wanted kids and it was, so I think I took it harder than my wife. I think my wife accepted that it wasn't going to happen for us much sooner than I did, and it was. You know it's. It's. It's one of those things where something's not happening to you, so you're like hyper sensitive of it happening to other people and like, literally, it seemed like everyone was getting pregnant so fast, so easily. And I think what really broke me the most was when the youth kids that were you know, when the kids that were my youth kids are now grown up and married and they're calling me saying, oh, we're going to have our first baby, I'm like, yay, I'm really, I'm genuinely happy for that. But in the inside I'm like, ah, and and for you know, one of the what I learned in that season was I really, really did not like the April fools people posting you know your ultrasound sonogram saying, oh, we're pregnant with our fourth kid, april fools. I'm like, ah, that's so like it was like ah, so my wife wanted us to. My life has always been open, wanted to explore the foster, fostering children and I was always like against it because I was like, how about my own? I want my kids to like look like one of us or whatnot. But my wife was always steady and assistant. And so one day we finally relented and we went through a private agency and did all the training and whatnot. And they give you at the I don't know if it's for, if it was just for this agency or if it's just general in Southern California, when we went through the foster training system, but at the end of our training they gave us a survey of what kind of kid we would want and what kind of things we could deal with. And so, like we could you hand, could you, would you welcome a kid with disabilities and all that stuff? And we're like you know, we never had to care of anything. That's not us. So we were like no, we, I don't think we can handle any kind of this. So we're like checking no on all these things that making us like feeling guilty, do so like, oh, who are we Like? What are we doing this if we're trying to pick like the perfect healthy kid or whatnot.

Speaker 3: 46:45

That's a tough, that's a tough form.

Speaker 2: 46:48

Yeah, it didn't matter because they sent us this kid. We get this call and they said that this kid is. This kid has he's three and a half, but he has language delays. And he's been in a group home a Casa Pacific, pacific in a group home for three weeks. His older sister was a more of an emergency placement and that foster home could only only have one room for one child. So her sister, his sister, was sent to that home and he was sent to this group home. So for three weeks he has social workers working with them morning, lunch and evening. And they say that, oh, he has language delays. So we picked them up on the way home, like literally like 10 minutes on the way home, my wife and look that are each other and it's like, ah, this, this doesn't feel like it's a language delay. And and we were right, turns out he's. You know, we, we Google, all like uh, uh, uh, characterist of autism. And we're like, oh, you know, you know self self diagnosing, I think he has autism. So we reached out to our social worker and here's the thing we couldn't get him. So he was about three. He was about he was three and a half, which was like a really critical age to get kids as officially assessed, if they, if they are autistic. But we couldn't get him tested because we didn't have educational and health rights over the topic, as he was in ours and his biological parents were in complete denial that there's anything wrong with this kid. So we're going in this bureaucratic circle, like he needs to get assessed, but he can't get assessed because we're not getting parent parental rights. But we're, you know, like this is a critical time where he needs to get all the services he can. And finally, our, our, our social worker, uh, uh, who was in charge of us, uh got a promotion and she was moving on to her thing and I don't know what happened or what she did, but she's like hey, I got you cleared, go get him tested. And we're like we didn't ask any question. We said, yes, ma'am, and we finally got him, um, assessed and and diagnosed with with autism and and he, um, he was uh, getting the services right away and uh, and at that time we really thought that this was going to be a temporary thing because, you know, uh, typically it's a 18 month process. Usually the parents go through all the training and, if they meet, follow the training with flying colors. Um, they, they get their kids back. And the kid and the parents were really, really, at least, uh, you know, they said the right things. They want to get the kid back. And then we started hearing that they're not going to their court appointed uh, counseling sessions and meetings and whatnot. And so, uh, the kids, uh, were ended up being up for adoption and at that time the state wanted to keep the siblings together, um, so they asked us if he wanted to take both of them and, um, his older sister, uh, is not on the spectrum but did have, um, um, um, learning disabilities at that age. Uh, and she was six years old and we're, uh, we had, we got to, uh, uh, watch it for a summer because, uh, for a month in the summer, because her, her foster parents were going to Mexico for a big family reunion and you can't take kids, uh, foster kids, out of country. It's really hard to take them out of state lines, but next, impossible to take them out of the country. So, you know, one day we're playing and we were painting in her hands full of red paint and she said, look, my hand is blue. And I was like, oh, that's six and a half. You should know that that's, that's red, you know. So we were like, okay, this, there's, there's something in both of these kids. And so, um, both my wife, she was we were like we, we don't want to do this, we don't want to say this, but I don't think, for the health of all of us involved, taking both of these kids would be beneficial to any of us. So we told the state hey, if you find a, uh, we'll keep Nathaniel for for as long as we need to, but if you find a home that can take them both, we'll, we'll gracefully bow out, but, uh, we can't take, uh, we would only want to adopt Nathaniel. And so about six months passed by and they were getting nothing. No, no interest, family members are. They're finding family members all throughout the country and, and, um, not enough to like take them in. Uh, their grandparents wanted to take both of them in, but their house wasn't ready and it, you know, kind of probably would never be ready and all that. So finally the state came back to us and said um, if you want, uh, you can, we will go through the process of having you adopt just Nathaniel, cause I guess one less kid off their system is still a win for them, um, but as I said, in that story, my parents were, were dead against it. I mean, I was. I'm still shocked, uh, how dead against it they were. Um, and I think a lot of it was fear, um, uh, and, and the Korean culture, especially from that they grew up. You know, family takes care of family right, like you don't have other people's kids, like if you're, if your mom and dad are, are absentee parents, the grandparents or aunties and uncles that take you and not some random stranger. So so the idea of taking a kid that's not, that doesn't have any of our blood or DNA in it in him, was a bit drawing for them too. And then, um, the, the, the, the meant the special needs aspect was really, really, uh, from, from, from their perspective, I think they're worried about the future hurdles that we'd have to cross as this kid gets older. And at three and a half we had, we had no idea, or by then he was five, we had no idea what kind of teenager he would be, would he become, you know? Would he regressed, becoming violent? Would he ever speak more than five words? You know my parents were dealing with all these fears about how it would affect my wife and I, right. So there, there there are motives were their intentions were good, um. But you know what they say? the path of hell is paved with well intentions, um but, I think, I think, uh, I think my parents ultimately knew that if we, if we, if I set my mind to it, I was going to do it, regardless of their um blessing or not. So, uh, they finally uh relented and we went through the uh adoption process, which was crazy in and of itself because around that time we were discerning a move to Texas. And so we let the uh uh person know, uh, our case person, our case manager know, and she said here's the deal If you don't finalize adoption before you move to California, um, you can take Nathaniel with you, because by that time his biological parents parental rights were terminated, so he was we're legally his guardian, just not his parents. Um, he's like, but if you don't finalize adoption and you move to California, you move to Texas, um, you'll have to start the adoption process in Texas from the beginning. And we're like Friday wants to do that because we don't know what Texas is like. We were scared. So, literally on Friday, we had our court date on like the last week of June, on a Friday. Uh, we, we finalized, we signed with that and then on Monday we got on a plane and moved to Texas. So it worked. We like, we were rushing, we were, we were. It was a really stressful time, but we were rushing, rushing, rushing, but um, we knew, uh, uh, I, I knew that um, I would always be wondering where this kid was for the rest of my life. If, if we were to uh separate, if we were to um and and I wanted to do everything I can to make sure that that we will be connected to his life uh, one way or the other. Um, and turns out that now he's uh, he's forever, forever ours Um, but uh, it's it, it, I, I think, um, and uh. Funnily enough, we have uh two more families in our church that uh Foster adopted um, there, uh a few of their kids, and so we're really trying to um, uh, encourage people to to look like we don't want to be like, hey, go foster child, but, like you know, be aware of that. If you know people who are looking to adopt, you know, have them at least put feelers out there for for these kids who don't, who don't have homes, who uh the. The saddest thing about this whole thing is you know when, when we uh, when we, when you're, when you're about to adopt a kid to the foster system, they can't tell you the family history in detail until you sign your adoption. So it's like after you adopt them, here's like here's all the issues that they come with. You know, and we're like what if? What? If there's like some health things that we don't want to know, like we want to know that that might affect our decision, and then our this lady, the court lady, was like well, if you sign it and you get the paper and and you don't like what you read, you can always unsign it. And I'm like this isn't a kid that you buy out of store and take to. You know, this isn't a gift receipt type of deal. Like what kind of attitude is that? But, um, and you get, you get, you get this. We got the stack of papers of all the things that he's experienced, him and his sister experienced. And it just breaks your heart because they, they didn't choose this right. Like they, they are completely innocent. They were just brought into this crappy situation and and and and and you know, like it's just, it's just like nothing. They didn't do anything, but all this shit is happening, is being done to them and and like all the and it's just so heartbreaking and so we're, we're really fortunate and glad I don't know if that's the words I want to use, but but, um, uh, you know, we're just really uh grateful that we're able to make at least a difference in one of these kids life with Nathaniel. Um, and, uh, I think my, my wife is, uh, she's been asking about possibly, um opening our home to another foster child. Um, I think she's ready, but I don't think I am. Uh, but I'm pretty sure if she's really really ready in in in six months to a year, um, I will be to, whether it's by choice or not.

Speaker 3: 56:56

What's, uh, what I mean? What is the, I guess, the perception or the, yeah, I mean, what's the perception of the of the foster care system in Texas? Is it, is it easily, uh, navigatable, or is it just as difficult as California and other places?

Speaker 2: 57:18

I think the foster system all throughout the country is is just is just a a very, very difficult uh process to navigate and um, you know, part of it is uh, these uh tax tax, these um social workers are overworked. Um, you know, when they're only supposed to have 10 cases, most of them are balancing 25. Um, and and they're woefully underfunded. And you have these uh pro-life people who put all their effort and money into um um preventing abortions, but don't give a second thought to these kids in the foster care system. Um, so there's there's a little bit of disconnect, um, I feel in in a lot of these uh, you know, save the children, um, but it's like, let's save the kids in suburbia who look like us and and and let's make sure they have the best life ever. Uh, so um it, it, uh, it is just as wild, um and and unfortunate here, uh, I um, some of our group homes are are completely maxed out, so you have these uh kids going from one hotel to another because they have no place to stay. Um, and you know, there's really uh, I don't know what we can really do for them um to make them, help them feel that they're loved. But, yeah, these, these foster kids, always get the um, they, they, they get, they get a, a uh. The shorthand of of of just society, it seems like.

Speaker 3: 58:52

Yeah, that's tough, it's um, yeah, it seems that seems to be the consensus. My, my wife and I um were licensed for awhile here in South Carolina and had a couple of of uh placements throughout the years. And it's um, we, we definitely went into it um with the uh, maybe the the same zeal that you had to be the, the Martin Luther 95 DCs, reform, the UMC. We definitely came into it with the same zeal. But with the foster system of, we're going to change the system and we're going to change the world. And don't you know the statistic that if one person in every church did this, there'd be no more orphans. I mean the whole nine yards and um, and and we were encouraged. You know some people that we know became licensed and did it Um, and some people did it and maybe didn't know or weren't ready for the uh, just the, the challenge that it can be and it's it's. It's one of those things where my wife and I have kind of tapered our uh, our push for people, because it can be life giving and it can absolutely implode your marriage as well. And just, I've never, I've never experienced anything in my life that brought out more insecurities about myself quicker than, amazingly, a three year old child that just rolls up in your door and all of a sudden, all of all of your insecurities and all of the things that maybe some of the wheels in life that are squeaky, but you just kind of hit with WD 40. Um, those are harder to have places when you're trying to navigate a broken system with a broken upbringing, with a child who's in need of healing. Um, so, yeah, it's, it's a challenging world and and just want to say thank you for, um, you and your wife and your um, yeah, you navigating this. And now you know to your point there's one less child on the books in the California foster care system and you know, I know you made the move to Texas and all that. So, yeah, just thank you. I don't know to the depth that you know, but I know the challenges of it and so, yeah, just keep on being an encouragement to other people too.

Speaker 1: 1:01:06

Me and my wife want to foster, and now we don't. After this, we're out now.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

Hey, where's the time, are you from?

Speaker 3: 1:01:22

Greenville yeah, we're in the upstate.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

Yeah, I grew up in Columbia, South Carolina. That messed me up.

Speaker 1: 1:01:29

Are you up in?

Speaker 3: 1:01:30

Columbia.

Speaker 2: 1:01:31

Oh man, 6 to 12. 8, 6 to 12. Oh yeah, 6 to 12. Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker 3: 1:01:37

Yeah, we both went to USC. I love Columbia. I know that I'm in the minority of South Carolinians and probably the world that loves Columbia, south Carolina. I love it, I love it.

Speaker 1: 1:01:46

Columbia is trash, Not a place to be living.

Speaker 2: 1:01:51

No, I grew up, you know, like it was one of the things where I was the only Asian kid in my class so that like messed me up and like in third grade, I remember praying to God before I go to bed please let me wake up with blonde hair and blue eyes tomorrow, because I wanted to fit in because, you know, I wasn't black and I wasn't white and I was just in the middle. There weren't that many Hispanic kids when I was. This was like 88 through 92. So, yeah, columbia did a number of. I had to do a lot of unpacking of cultural self-identity and self-love from my childhood days at Columbia, south Carolina.

Speaker 3: 1:02:39

Now the real question is and only people in South Carolina, you know you kind of make broad brush drugs. We're from Greenville, you're. You know you lived in Columbia, but were you Columbia, columbia or like Irmo or Lexington, like or where in Columbia were you?

Speaker 2: 1:02:55

We were in Columbia, columbia. Well, I should, I should. I blocked it out of my head so I don't know we were. I'm trying to think about what high school I've gone to.

Speaker 3: 1:03:10

I don't know if I've gone to a high school. I'm packing powder trauma now.

Speaker 1: 1:03:13

Oh man, Columbia.

Speaker 2: 1:03:16

So I'm gonna say I should look that up, but yeah, no, I don't remember.

Speaker 3: 1:03:22

Wow, what brought you to Columbia? I mean, if you're, did you move? Did you make a move from California to Columbia or somewhere else? And then you moved from Columbia to California.

Speaker 2: 1:03:31

Yeah, yeah. So. So my dad, my dad, took us from Korea to Southern California when I was six, because my, my mom's family was already in California and they were always saying come to America, come to America. And so my dad this is the final side that I was the only child back then that I would have the best life if he moved to America. So for a year my dad was didn't have a job because, you know, he was a pastor looking for a church. And then he got a call from this church, this church in Columbia, saying that there's a current church that needs a pastor. We think you'd be the best person for it, and that's how we moved to Columbia. My dad got a job. Of all the places in the United States Columbia, south Carolina- we're practically neighbors then, in a way. I do remember. I have. You know, I have fond memories of Murder Beach and Charleston and whatnot, but there's a lot of like school. I was never. Funnily enough, I was more bullied when I, when we moved back to California after sixth grade and but I just remember feeling lonely on Mondays through Fridays because no one really looked like me. I also remember my so. So Joseph was a name that's not, that's not on any legal documents, but kids made fun of my Korean name. So I asked my dad, well, how come I have this Korean name? And he said, okay, from this day on you'll be Joseph. So that's how I got that name and you know when you, my mom only knew how to make Korean food at the time. So when they would send me to school, they would send me school with Korean food for lunch. And oh my God, the kids mercilessly teach me about that. I do remember that and I remember going home after like the first week of school and saying mom, I really want white kids lunch and the only thing she knew how to make was peanut butter and jelly sandwich. So from kindergarten through eighth grade was even when we moved to California I got peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

Speaker 3: 1:05:37

Man, yeah, that's gosh, that's just a whole, that's a framework I don't have, like, I mean, in the upstate of South Carolina, even Columbia was just like yeah, everybody, I mean we and we I grew up, I didn't grow up in Greenville, I'm going to grow up in in easily, if you know, and still live in easily. So, um, yeah, I mean what, how did you? I mean looking back now and feel free to be like I've, I've blocked this out of my memory for a reason, so shut up, but. But I mean looking back now, how did you navigate that Like in in Columbia and then moving back to California? I mean, what was what was navigating that like? Because a consistent theme is you know, you're, you being Korean and Korean churches and and moving over and and then they're not being many Koreans and not wanting to go to Chandler, texas, because you have to fight all of the, you know ignorance, if you will, and around all that. I mean what? What does navigating that or what did navigating that look like for you?

Speaker 2: 1:06:53

You know, I, I, I do the fact that we had a Korean church, so on the weekends I got to see people who look like me. I think that was really important. Um, but, uh, for that, for you know, when you start, when you, when I started noticing that I was different, um, I just wanted to fit in and want to do everything I could to fit in, and so, um, uh, one of the ways I fit in was, uh, to play sports. So I got, uh, you know, um, uh, I was always decent and average in all the sports that we played, in the playground or and whatnot. So, um and uh, I think you know, last week, at, uh, at my therapist appointment, we were, we finally broke down my child because I've seen, I haven't seen this therapist for like a year and I didn't want to like go into this, but I, finally, we finally like touched onto it and, um, you know, it was one of those things where, uh, uh, if you don't want to get bullied, um, I learned really quick that if I, if I, make fun of myself, then there's nothing that they can make fun of me with. But if that doesn't work, if I, if I shift the uh, the attention not to the bully but to the person standing next to bully and I make fun of him and we all start laughing at him then. Then the heat is off me and it's on him, right, so then. So I was always, uh, really quick with my words and really quick with my sarcasm, and that, the, the, the sarcasm and the uh, uh, the desire to roast people is still very, very like prevalent and whatnot, and oftentimes my wife would get upset with me saying, hey, you know, like you don't need to be sarcastic to your own family. And I was like, I'm sorry, that's my love language. It's like that's not a love language. Um, so, uh, you know these, these coping mechanisms that that you, you use to survive. Um, I learned recently that it's still there, even though, like, you don't need that anymore. Uh, so, humor, sports, um, and and roasting, uh, and you know, like, in those days you're like, oh, we're just making fun of you guys, we're boys and whatnot. Um, uh, I don't think that's that's really uh, uh, applicable in my life stage now, but, um, I think those are one of those ways that I, I, I navigated and then to come for circle. So, after, after South Carolina, we moved back to California. We lived in Santa Barbara for five years and then we moved to Hawaii. I moved to Hawaii, uh, right after I finished my sophomore year in high school and then, when we went to Hawaii, all of a sudden I am the majority and that was weird, um, and and and uh, uh, well, not Koreans, but just Asians in general, and I think that's when I really really began to appreciate my culture, my history and my background and, um, uh was really able to let go of this, this, this like self loathing that I had for not looking like everyone else, and uh, and then just really being able to be comfortable in my skin. And then I think in about, like you know, late thirties, uh, I, I learned a difference between fitting in and belonging. Um, and a lot of that is due to, uh, brené Brown, uh, teaching who's who. She's also in the Episcopalian and in Houston, and I feel like one of these days I'm going to meet her because our circles are really really close to one another. Um, but, uh, I, I, I and then. So, going back to my church plan, I'm trying to get people to understand also what it means, how, what it uh, that fitting in is different from belonging. We don't want people to fit in, we want people to belong. And so Brené Brown says fitting in is changing yourself so that you become part of the group, but belonging is being accepted fully for who you are. Uh, those were the distinction on top of my head that I remember. Uh, brené Brown saying gosh.

Speaker 3: 1:10:50

I love that the difference between fitting in and belonging. Thanks for sharing that.

Speaker 2: 1:10:54

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:10:57

So I have, um, so just to shift gears entirely, but that's a, that's a beautiful story. I love this, just talking to different people, just because, like that's, I've never, you know, talked to a Korean American, which is like crazy, but it's like a thing that's because I'm in Greenville, I just don't know how to Korean Americans, so that's really cool. Um, so are there any like future projects that you're working on, or is there anything that you're working on currently that, um do you want to tell us about? Cause I'm sure you're always doing something, so I'm curious.

Speaker 2: 1:11:38

I'm chronically online.

Speaker 1: 1:11:39

This year.

Speaker 2: 1:11:40

Um, uh, I, I, I'm going to be celebrating a year release of my book next month, which is called when the sinks go in, and it's only available on Amazon. Um, that's the only thing I got really working on. I started out outside the church and, um, I do have a phone call next with uh, uh, I don't know if y'all know that pastor from Oklahoma, jeremy Coleman. Uh, he, I met him through a Tik Tok as well. And, uh, we, we have a phone call set up. Uh, um, I don't know if this is a uh, uh, let's catch up, cause we haven't talked to one another in a while, but I feel like he has something, some kind of idea brewing, so we'll see what that um, what that unfolds. But, um, if people want to keep up with me, um, I'm very, very easy to find on Instagram and on uh, uh Tik Tok. And, uh, it's my name, joseph, uh, you are, I think it's both of them. I think it's Joseph dot you, um, and then, um, I have a blog that I don't update, our, which is also Joseph you, I've had that's very mean.

Speaker 3: 1:12:38

Everything I have is my name.

Speaker 2: 1:12:39

That's probably not very Jesus like you remember it though. It was easy to find you.

Speaker 3: 1:12:45

I was like, hey, we're interviewing Joseph you, let me, let me try to find him on social media and he's like Joseph you. He was like, hey, that's the guy. So maybe, maybe to wrap things up or we can keep going, but this is kind of a wrap up question, um, but I love this question cause you can you can tell a lot about a person, at least in the stage of life, at their end, with with these three questions what are you reading, what are you watching and what are you listening to?

Speaker 2: 1:13:18

In their particular order.

Speaker 3: 1:13:21

And it doesn't have to be. You don't have to be like a fusion. You know it can be. It can be a, a secular book. Drake's new album.

Speaker 2: 1:13:29

No, Uh. So currently I'm reading two books, uh, one for fun, one for work. The fun one is um Yellow Face by, I think, RF Kwong. Um, I think, uh, I got it because it was 2020.

Speaker 1: 1:13:41

That's on my list.

Speaker 2: 1:13:42

Yeah, it was 2023's best book, uh, best fiction on Goodreads. Um, and for church stuff, I'm reading, um, this book called the Creed by Adam Hamilton, because I think, uh, lent is right around the corner and I think we're going to do a lent study on the Apostles Creed so that we can, um, return, like, talk about the fundamentals and basics of our faith. Uh, currently what we're watching is we finally caught up and finished a succession on HBO, um and uh, during the pandemic, uh, when everything was locked down, uh, my wife and I uh, we reintroduced ourselves to Korean drama. So, uh, currently we're watching this Korean drama called Mary my husband on, uh, amazon Prime. And then, um, uh, what I'm listening to is, um, I'm a huge Swifty, so, uh, I've been, uh, consuming folklore.

Speaker 1: 1:14:35

Uh, oh, I didn't expect that. I really did not expect that.

Speaker 2: 1:14:39

Yeah, um, we, uh, you know what A church member graciously gifted Nick, Um. So, uh, we were, um, this church member, uh, whose, whose daughter loves Taylor, and they were going to go to the Swiss con Taylor Swiss concert. When she was in Houston overheard Nick and I, my music guy and I, just talking about our adoration of Taylor Swift. And then the following week they come up to me and say, oh, they come up to Nick and I say, hey, we got two tickets for you and Nick to go see Taylor Swift on the last show that she's here in Houston. And first we were like, oh my God, and then the guilt hit because, because, uh, his girlfriend is a huge Swifty and both my wife and my son are huge Swifties too, and it was like, oh, how do we navigate this? And I tried to see if we could find tickets for them to go and I was like, nope, I'm not paying that for for for this. So, uh, nick and I, we were our date, we were each other's date and, uh, we enjoyed it. And uh, um, we dealt with the repercussions afterwards. My son, uh, I didn't tell my son I went, uh, and then he was, he was, he loves to go through my phones and I took a lot of videos of the of the show and it's like, oh, is Taylor Swift? Where'd you? You know? Like, you know, where was this? And I was like, oh, it's from the TV. Buddy, I was just recording off the TV and like, I think you know he knew I was lying, but, uh, huge, uh, swifty, and um, uh, and I still listen to a lot of K-pop, um, um, but it's, I don't know how this is going to sound because my wife makes fun of me all the time. So there's all these, like you know, like I listened to Taylor Swift, I listened to, uh, I love Olivia Rodrigues, uh, guts album, um, been listening, listening to a little bit of, uh, phoebe Bridges and Lizzie, uh, mcathlin, I don't know, say last name. And then all the Korean songs that are on repeat for me are are these Korean girl groups? And my wife goes you're 43. What are you doing watching these girls dancing on stage and singing? Aren't they a little too young for you? And I'm like, oh, don't make this weird, I like their music. And she's like, yeah, along with other 18 and 17, 16 year olds. Like, like, can't you listen to music your age? And I was like stop shaming me. So I tried not to think about uh, I just try to listen to their music without thinking about anything else, because, um, my wife has made me feel like a dirty old man.

Speaker 3: 1:17:07

Was the? Was the era's tour? I mean, was that everything is cracked up to be?

Speaker 2: 1:17:12

Oh, my God, People say you weren't going to sit for the three hours. Nick and I, we, we stood for the whole like three hours I think. I think I know a little bit more songs than Nick. Um, I think Nick went for the production value and all that stuff because he's really you know, he's, he's a musician, so he was really looking at the prediction. I was in there, I was for the ride, Like my, my, I lost my voice the next day. Uh, thankfully this was a Sunday night, so I had a week to recover my voice. But, um, I was. I was forced. Uh, all throughout the weekend people were like, are you sitting on? I was like no, I was at the Taylor Swift concert last night.

Speaker 1: 1:17:45

I just can't picture you just singing at the top of your lungs Taylor Swift. That just cracks me up. That's awesome.

Speaker 3: 1:17:54

What's the all right? Last, last, last question about Taylor Swift. I promise, uh, what's what's the best album Like, if? If one, did you dress up like an album? And two, if the answer is yes, which one? If it's no, which one would you have dressed up if you did? Cause I know that that's a, I know enough. No, it's a heated thing. You know, people are dressing up in their reputation era or the red era. Where, where's, where's Joseph at on that.

Speaker 2: 1:18:17

No, man, I wrote my Hawaii shirt. I wasn't going to dress up. Uh, um, I, we, you know uh, my dad, uh, when growing up, uh, uh, let me go chicker treating once the first year that we were in in in America, and then he found out what Holly was and then forbade us from from ever dressing up in costumes. So I don't dress up in costumes. Um, uh, so, uh, I think, um, I I shared with uh people like my uh rank the albums and order of favorite to to least favorite. And man, I have never gotten so much horrible feedback from random people about my ranking of of Taylor's album. Um, but my favorite right now is is folklore. I think that's uh, uh, maybe it was like time it was released, cause it was like in the pandemic and all that, but but, uh, I've been, I've been revisiting that album all week this week. I don't know why.

Speaker 1: 1:19:10

If it's not 1989, you're wrong.

Speaker 3: 1:19:13

Oh, that's red. It's easily red.

Speaker 2: 1:19:15

No.

Speaker 3: 1:19:17

That was my favorite before before folklore.

Speaker 2: 1:19:20

But I think folklore it's somehow uh uh takes it over.

Speaker 3: 1:19:24

And now to all of our Patreon subscribers, you can join us for the next bonus 30 minutes where we debate Taylor Swift albums. If we had a Patreon nor subscribers, oh man, well, yeah, I mean, that's, that's. I love asking that question because you know Episcopalian Houston Swiftie. Amazing, the Swiftie came out of left field. I love it.

Speaker 1: 1:19:51

Yeah, I was expecting something completely different. I don't know what I was expecting, but it was not Taylor Swift, I can assure you of that.

Speaker 2: 1:19:58

Hey, I'm pretty basic.

Speaker 1: 1:19:59

Was there anything that you want to share with the audience? Is there anything, to wrap up, you want to share with our audience?

Speaker 2: 1:20:07

I would just say what I tell our church people we can, we can uh that uh, everyone matters to God, even if God doesn't matter to them.

Speaker 1: 1:20:14

Awesome, that's perfect. Thanks for listening to the across the camera podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.